Will the Chevrolet Volt be a failure or a success?

No, I'll happily pay THREE thousand more (which is the true net difference, as you'd certainly acknowledge in any PHV vs. standard Prius thread) for the car I am actually able to acquire locally and offers me a true EV experience for my typical day, which the PHV is not capable of providing.

Neither the PHV nor the Leaf are available in my area, 6 months after getting my Volt. In the meantime, I gave up nothing I actually need. Seriously, when's the last time you put 5 people in your car? I've done it once in the past 20 years.

That's a false comparison and you know it. It has 1/2 the EV range of the Leaf but I'm 95% EV day-to-day. How am I deriving "1/2 the EV benefit" vs a Leaf?

 

Just last week in Manhattan, I had 6 (including myself) in my Prius. I knew I could get a ticket and it was cramped in the back but two of them just needed me to drop them off at the Path train station.

Your life style doesn't require 5 seat but generally, a midsize cost $3k more than a compact.

You said Volt has a true EV experience. If it has less than half the range of the Leaf, is it still a true EV experience? Your monthly data disagree with "true EV experience" because you used gas on many occasions.

 

For the true EV experience, I think he was referring to the speed limited EV mode of the plugin prius. Above that speed it become a normal Prius, whereas the volt will try its hardest to not go to CS mode.

And this could be a big deal for people who have a 2 mile commute all at high speeds. Around here at least "commute" and "high speed" don't work. The interstate which normally travels at 80-85mph is a 6 lane crawl for 2 hours when most people are commuting anyways.

 

Where are you getting this?

In all tests I have seen with the GenII conversions and the pre-production official GenIII plugins, they were waaaaaay more efficient in Wh/mi than the volt. And the leaf is again more efficient in wh/mi. Tesla even more so.

 

You drove in Manhattan? Nuts...

Are you comparing EPA numbers to individual test results? The EPA number is 360 Wh/mi at the wall yet the Volt uses 260Wh/mi at a steady 55 mph. The best reported result I'm aware of was 175Wh/mi over a full charge, the equivalent of 21 miles in the pre-prod cars. Did anyone go that far pure EV in a pre-prod PHV?

My personal long term average is 325 Wh/mi and I've recorded 370 at 70mph with the AC on.

gwmort was referencing the MPGe number of 87 for the PHV but there are no details on how that was determined. I would be surprised if the production car isn't more electrically efficient than the pre-prod cars since it's quite a bit lighter. That makes me agree with the guys thinking it includes some gasoline usage in the calculation.

 

Prius Team said we should compare the 87 mpge of the PHV prius to the 93 mpge of the Volt, so I did.

Also, I never claimed to be more efficient than a leaf or Tesla.

 

I agree it must contain some gas usage in the calculation, just as their blended cd operation will consume some gasoline for a net effect of 87 mpge.

 

So take your word that the volt is more efficient than the test and then take their word as gospel that the prius is less efficient than the volt?



I have seen numbers all over the place for the plugin but all have been lower than 360wh/mi for the volt. Some are close to your real world 300wh/mi some are lower. We need more studies, but the one i am remembering and tried to find listed the prius as 220wh/mi cruising, 260/280 average.

 

There is no conflict. So far, all the "EV rated" cars have exceeded the test while maintaining their relative relationships. There is no reason not to expect the PHV to exceed 87MPGe just as the Volt exceeds 93 MPGe in the hands of most drivers. There is some precedent to expect the ratio between them to be consistent.

 

Being a Volt owner I really do not think the car was meant to be efficient... For me it is more comparable to some of the sports/muscle cars I have owned in both feel/power than a vehicle meant to be efficient. The steering has a feel similar to that of the SRT-8 we owned, and the car just seems to power through corners. The car is pretty much only as efficient as the person operating it though. The battery can last 40 miles, or like today I burned up about 32 miles of the battery range in only 21 miles of driving...

 

GM said all along that they wanted to deliver a vehicle that did not force as many driver compromises as the existing technology required. I agree that it feels much more like a traditional car than my Prius does (overall ride, acceleration, handling etc.). I would have liked a bit more seat time than I had in the Volt I tested, but it seemed to compare quite favorably to my wife's Cruze.

 

Electric operation upped to 94 mpge on 2012 EPA label:

http://www.chevroletvoltage.com/images/stories/VoltEPA1.jpg

 

Hard to read, and confusing to understand, but the 60 MPGe combined composite does seem to be there under Section #1? Does it say compacts run from 14-to-60 MPGe this vehicle is 94 and best is 99?
But the 60 MPGe is in fact the Volt, so sort of mixing things up?

 

Yeah it seems weird to use a number there that they are not displaying on the sticker for the particular vehicle.

The descriptor (written by Chevy) below notes the 60mpge is the Volt as the highest combined efficiency in the segment (Leaf and Prius being midsize cars and all)

 

All this talk about which car is the most efficient has me thinking that I don't really have a clue as to how efficient my Leaf is. for example today I averaged six miles per kilowatt according to the cast stop that would give me a 166 watt per mile number. But then my SO does the 65 mph freeway trip and does 4.5 and now I am down to 222 Watts. But my charging efficiency is 83% if using my modified EVSE or 75% if using 120 volt trickle charging.

So knowing all that how do I rank with other cars?
We will not mention that my efficiency drops to 286 watts during winter

**edit** LT average (which is on the rise) 205 watts per mile from Car

 

First.

Unless comparing to a Tesla in which case I believe you rank second.

 

You don't need 4000 miles for that. Depending on who's numbers you use you need more like 60-80 mile trip, after which the Volt costs more. That's against a regular Prius, this number comes down sharply against a PHV.

Nope, it's not even more efficient than a non-PHV on trips of that distance. The problem of course is that once the Volt runs out of its electric charge (and cost per mile is quite cheap on electric) it starts to gouge the checkbook running much worse miles on gas, and premium at that. The Volt fails most comparisons after it runs out of electric charge and becomes a modestly efficient gas-based compact that seats four people.

The Volt fit a very tight niche before. With the PHV costing many thousands less its niche shrinks further. It will continually struggle to sit confidently at the top of any niche that squeezes between a Leaf (true EV) and a Prius or a Prius PHV (best-in-any-class hybrid efficiency).

 

I am sorry you are incorrect.

A PHV will travel 15 miles at 87 mpge.
A Volt will travel those same 15 mils at 94 mpge

For the next 20 miles the PHV is burning gas alone at a rate of 49 mpg
For the next 20 miles the Volt continues to travel at 94 mpge.

After 35 miles the PHV will start to catch up because of its higher CS mileage. The PHV will have burned its first gallon by mile 64. The Volt will have burned its first gallon by mile 72.

The PHV will have burned its 2nd gallon by mile 113, the Volt will have burned its second gallon by mile 109. The cross over point is somewhere very close to 100 miles.

Add to that a fully loaded Volt is about as expensive as a PHV advanced (after credit), and the Volt offers more torque and better all electric driving experience without engine revs kicking in at mild acceleration.

 

Your numbers are different if they include the price of electricity, as they must. Here is for example the cost of energy for the PHV and the Volt. 65 miles. Assume approx $4 in electricity per hundred miles. $3.55 @ 87, $3.75 @ 91. PHV = 49 MPG, Volt = 37 mpg.

PHV = $.60 in electricity, $3.62 gas = $4.22 total.
Volt = $1.60 in electricity, $2.53 gas = $4.13 total

Conclusion: With gas prices where they are at this time a Volt costs less to operate than a PHV Prius at distances up to 65 miles. Beyond 65 miles it costs more to operate. Using the same calculations as above but assume a 400 mile road trip, for example, the PHV costs $28.49 and the Volt about $38.

 

Using your numbers the breakeven is at 68 miles. But we are talking long distance driving here, so it seems more appropriate to use highway mileage figures, so 40 mpg for the Volt, which would push the breakeven point to 78 miles.

Also, this is dependent on the cost of electricity. You seem to be using ~12.4 cents per kw-hr, a bit above national average. If one has cheap electricity, as I do here in California using a time-of-use rate for EVs, about 7 cents per kw-hr, the charge cost of the Volt drops to $0.90 (Prius to 0.34), and the breakeven goes up to 98 miles.

The size of the niche the Volt fits in is disputable also. You seem to think the # of people who have daily driving in the 15-50 mile range is very small. I think this is a very large niche. It gets even bigger if you consider people who have an opportunity to charge at work.