Will the Chevrolet Volt be a failure or a success?

You completely missed my point. I did not say they warmed the cabin or tested in the cold.

Again, I suggested that the percentage they reduce the raw results by may have been chosen to accomodate the fact that cold weather affects range much more than an ICE car. It is a possible explanation for why myself and so many others regularly and dramatically exceed the EPA range estimate in moderate conditions.

Again, they do the exact same thing with their gas tests (reducing the raw results by some percentage) but they have a lot more experience with it.

 

The only cold weather test of the PHV I found came up with SIX miles EV. They have a fleet of them. Why isn't there any data on cold weather operation? Toyota wouldn't loan them out anywhere cold in the winter?

Yes, every limitation of the PHV is, in fact, an advantage that I was too stupid to notice. Got it.

Let's see, so I can keep it straight:
- So little power it takes 30 seconds to accelerate to 60: "it's more efficient in EV mode!"
- 60 mph top EV speed: "it's more efficient to run the gas engine at high speeds!"
- 300lb battery pack to get 3kW usable power: "it has high power density!"
- have to run the ICE to get any kind of heat: "running the 35% efficient gas engine is more efficient!"
- in development since 2007: "they're making sure it's right!"
- no active thermal management of battery pack: [fill in blank]
- can't recharge bigger pack(s) when done w/EV range (because they can't support the charging currents the generator can supply and still survive): [fill in blank]
- did I miss any?



I leased a Volt because I wanted to drive w/o an ICE running. That's the point of the car, with all the attendant compromises. My commute is 11.3 miles each way so running the ICE early would do nothing for me.

To be fair, I offer Volt counterpoints:

- electricity usage is worse because it carries a whole extra drivetrain around: yep, 6% worse than a Leaf
- gas-only mileage sucks: yes, it does
- compact car: yep, battery pack is huge
- heat sucks: not so great, crushes range. A/C is typical GM awesome though.
- still have to run the gas engine sometimes: true
- really, unbelievably, expensive: leases like a PIII w/Nav though
- Rear suspension bushings are too soft and piss me off in fast, bumpy corners: my friends tell me I must be the only Volt owner in the world to notice this
- Regen messes with precise trail-braking to rotate the car: see above
- Crazy buffeting with one window open.
- doesn't save you money!: OMG! Really?

 

I was having so much fun, I never directly addressed this point. What is your measurement of "efficient"? What assumptions did you make? Could you show your math?

Assuming a 25 mile range, a Volt will be using electricity (wall measurement) @ 50kWh/100mi. Using DOE numbers, the average residential rate is 11.62 cents/kWh, or $5.81/100 miles. Again, using DOE numbers, average regular gasoline price is $3.96.

Soooo... 100 / ($5.81/$3.96) = 68 MPG ICE car cost equivalent while running EV in the dead of winter.

How much better is the PHV? There's data on the Volt for winter operations but I can't find anything more than the one SIX mile result.

 

That's a misconception.

Just because the gas engine spins at speeds faster than 100 km/h (62.1 mph) doesn't mean it's actually consuming gas.

Remember, the 60 kW eletric motor can deliver 80 hp, more than enough to sustain a cruise on the highway.
.

 

Nice fantasy, but no. The fudge factors are the same in ICE, HV, and *EV cars.

I did not say "all." Do you have a rebuttal other than a strawman argument ?

Energy/distance,
that heating the cabin requires energy,
I could, and have.

 

Wrong question, unless the Prius PHV costs $41k.
If the PHV costs less, then the pseudo "oil-hawks" (all 5k of them, plus or minus) that drive around 40 miles a day may well find that the Volt was no more an oil saver than the PHV in a cold winter. And not much better than a standard Prius, lol.

At that point the rationalizations will flip-flop to "driving experience."

 

Really? I have searched and not found it. Would it be too difficult to provide a reference?

The facts continue to be that I (and many, many others) exceed the EPA EV range estimate by 25+% every single day. Meanwhile, I never exceed an EPA gas rating. Why?

You have but it's too much of a burden to show me the link? So, it's energy then.

An ICE car getting 50mpg is using 68kW/100mi. I can see the PHV doing better than that IF it really gets 12E miles in cold weather with some kind of head-standing. I just don't see it w/o active thermal management of the battery pack.

 

Wait. If we're talking about ENERGY efficiency, what difference does the price make?

Yes, I imagine that will be an awful realization. I hope their isn't a rash of suicides. Prius Superiority Realization Syndrome ("pissers") affects people in unpredictable ways.

They're crazy, aren't they? I mean, who gives a sh*t about that stuff?


I do love this forum.

 

Your problem, not mine. I exceed EPA by 40% this time of year in our Prius, and hit right on old EPA in my old Honda Civic, so I beat today's EPA metrics handily.

You do not 'get' why a Prius PHV will have superior EV range in the cold compared to a Volt ? Read the last couple pages of this thread by at least 3 different people explaining to you the advantage of blended driving and CHP. Of course this is based on prototype driving, but between those reports and Toyota's acknowledgement that EV/HV modes are selectable, I am reasonably confident that a lot of the cabin heating penalty of *EV driving is avoidable in a Prius PHV.

 

To the ~ 3000 Volt owners of the world, apparently very little.

 

Oh, I understand why you think that driving on gas for a while, then calling subsequent engine-off miles "EV miles" will get you those 12E miles. I just don't think it will happen to any car not in a climate controlled garage. The battery will never warm up and range will suffer even if you're not using the heat.

From memory, I see a 20-25% reduction at 30F WITHOUT using the heat while driving (pre-heating before I get in the car, which takes about 500Wh IIRC) and the Volt has the advantage of a direct mechanism to warm the battery. My car is parked outside.

Still curious about the same "fudge factor" for all cars.

 

I think it is important to separate out two separate issues with regards to winter driving in a plug in:

1. If electrical energy is going to supply cabin comfort, less electrical energy is available for propulsion.

At the temperatures I experienced when I first got it this resulted in about a 10% drop in AER, but to be fair I didn't get it until the end of March. A more blended approach will use less electrical energy for this purpose and therefore save more of it for propulsion, but the compromise is you will burn more gas.

2. Extremely low temperatures cause decreases in battery performance itself without regard to cabin comfort.

I don't usually run into these extremes in Delaware, but John out in Minnesota apparently does regularly (and I believe him). With this winter effect on performance a thermal management system will preserve more of the battery's range, but the compromise is it adds weight, complexity, and cost.

I suspect the PHV prius will have less loss of range related to (#1) than a Volt because of its blended power approach, but will have more of (#2) due to the lack of a thermal management system, that may be overkill in such a modest sized battery anyway. For most drivers that will probably mean less of a percentage drop of overall range in the PHV (maybe 15%?) compared to the loss in the Volt (maybe 30%) operating in cold conditions, but I suspect the PHV will have a more significant drop in gas mileage during the winter.

These are just my guesses, I won't bother debating any of them until there is some data to compare.

 

Maybe. If the drive is longer than nominal EV range, the petrol use takes on another task -- heating the cabin for free.

 

Ford is using coolant to heat/cool its battery for the Focus EV...I don't know where they are getting the heat from for the coolant but the PHV and the Volt both have ICE engines, why not use the coolant to heat the batteries in the winter and minimize the loses?

I understand that it would require ICE heatup and apparently that would make Volt people crazy but what if you could switch it on/off for the volt so if you don't need the better range that a warm battery could give you then you could leave it off?

 

There are really two issues here as well, first do you have a liquid heating/cooling system to help control battery temperature, the Volt does, Ford will, Toyota and Nissan do not. Secondly is the heat source for that system, I don't know if the Ford system will use electric when plugged in and ICE waste heat when not, but the Volt has an electric system, so if you leave the car plugged in the temp of the battery will always be good.

 

I am not sure how ford is doing it with the EV Focus, you can clearly see a coolant reservior here, but where is the heat going to come from?

 

Can the valvetrain keep the valves closed while it's doing that? It doesn't seem to.

60kW is 80hp.

 

You wouldn't want the valves shut, you would lock up the engine.

AFAIK it just pumps air so you would have some friction losses but you aren't burning gas.

 

Yep. According to Hobbit this state in the G2 Prius consumes about 2 kw.

As an aside, this power drain avoidance is most of the benefit of P&G.

 

So if the world really does end this Saturday will that make the Volt the most successful Plug In hybrid in the history of all mankind?