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Why the BMW i3-REx

Discussion in 'EV (Electric Vehicle) Discussion' started by bwilson4web, May 15, 2016.

  1. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    Positive camber on the rear end of a car would be extremely unlikely.

    That also surprises me that the inside and outside of the tire have different new tread depths. In any case, I'd think that flipping the tire mounting (if they're not directional tires) wouldn't greatly increase risk of hydroplaning with such a narrow tire.
     
    #381 bhtooefr, Apr 12, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    My next step is to use the plumb-line, string method to measure the actual camber. Then I have a decision to make.
    Once I've documented the camber, I'll see if I can get a tire changing station and reverse the existing tires on the rims and remount. I have 11 months on what had been new tires. So I want to try the existing tires, reversed, for another 5-10k miles. I want to confirm the tire wear finally equalizes across the tread. I also need to verify there are no adverse handling characteristics by seeking and driving in wet weather.

    I also want to plan and practice, suspension tuning before the next set of tires. My thinking is even-wear from with even temperatures across the treads should maximize efficiency. As long as it doesn't change the straight-line stability, this is where I want to go.

    Finally, there is my plan to double the usable gasoline by adding an aux tank interface to the filler tube. Doubling the gasoline range will make a significant improvement in block-to-block times. At 65-70 mph, the BMW i3-REx then matches long-haul trucker speeds, perfect!

    Bob Wilson

    ps. Fixed the quote. But that does not change my approach, yet.
     
  3. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    Extremely UNlikely, not extremely likely, and I edited to reflect.

    Edit: In any case, there'll be a tolerance range on the alignment specs. If you're not an aggressive driver, I'd go to the least negative camber that's allowed in the specs, both front and rear. You do not want to lose only rear end grip in a car with significant weight in the rear.
     
    #383 bhtooefr, Apr 12, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I corrected the quote but there are facts and data we need:
    1. What are the actual, loaded camber of both front and rear?
    2. What is the 'natural' rest angle of unloaded new tires?
    My thinking is I want to start with the unloaded tire tread angle and adjust the vehicle camber so loaded, the tires under load will be flat. Then test the handling and make some hard decisions:
    • negative rear camber - this may be required for straight-line stability. If so, I'll flip the tires so the inner tread, the thicker tread, will wear down.
    • positive rear camber - again, make sure the thickest tread is on the wear side.
    Then I need to do the same for the front tires.

    Bob Wilson
     
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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  6. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Ok, here is what happened:

    A couple of weeks ago, I went in for a recall and we got this on the drive-in, tire checker:
    [​IMG]
    Now this was not enough to replace the 13k service mile tires. However, I met the technician outside and he said the tires are 'OK' but I was concerned. So I did a tire tread temperature test.

    I took a small tripod and mounted a IR thermometer on it and configured the iPhone to record a video of the readings. Then on a cool day, 65F (18C), I drove 10 miles (16 km) at 75 mph (120 kph). I stopped and video recorded the tread temperatures:
    [​IMG]

    -1.0 degrees is the normal camber spec and I had a 4-wheel alignment in December when the motor mount bolt broke.
    . . .
    [​IMG]
    The clue is both of the right tires show excessive toe out. I was asked about whether or not I'd hit something and thinking about it, the light came on.

    Here is the culprit:
    [​IMG]
    There are two accesses to my neighborhood and this one has those 'split' speed bumps. The gap is designed so firetrucks and ambulances can enter and leave easily. But it temped me to have the 'driver' wheels go through the gap and the passenger side tires took the bump. This would also put a torque on the car that probably moved the rear camber too far negative.

    I still need to replicate the tread temperature tests but at least now we have a clue about the problem.
    • The nner tread is 2F (1C) warmer than the outer tread - this is the profile of too much camber and/or possibly toe (unlikely)
    • 3d tread is noticeably cooler - I run maximum side-wall pressure, 51 psi, and this suggests the 3d tread may be stiff and off loaded by higher pressure on the side treads. This merits investigation.
    So this morning, I dropped the car off with instructions to take 0.5 to 1.0 degrees of camber off. So if already at -1.0 degrees, it should come back at 0 to -0.5 degrees. Then I can replicate the tire tread temperature test and see if we are getting something more even.

    I'll then start with 51 psi, measure, and then reduce by 5 psi until reaching 35 psi (yes, this is low for the rear tires.) The goal is to see if between changing the rear camber and pressure we can get even heating across all four treads.
     
    #387 bwilson4web, Apr 27, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    are you saying the speed bumps are affecting your alignment? what speed do you hit them at? i always slow way down for those suckers.
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Yes but I've driven our Prius over the same bumps for years with no effect on alignment. In effect, the BMW i3 appears to be more sensitive to these effects.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  10. Ferrarilover

    Ferrarilover Active Member

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    Are you driving with manufacturer tyre pressures?
    My personal view is to run the car as recommended as they have invested £ms in knowing the right answer.
    I just that it could be a contributing factor.


    iPhone ?
     
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The tread temperature survey will confirm it.

    Bob Wilson
     
  12. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Rated? Or suggested. They suggest 1 thing, but they also rate the tires' safe max pressure. One thing hybrid & plugin drivers learned over 1½ decades ago, is that manufacturers receive a double benefit by suggesting you run your tires lower than you should. Tire ride 'feels' smooth when lower than stated max limits - but they're prone to wear quicker too. But if your goal is both higher mileage & hydroplaning prevention - you go up w/psi. Many on priuschat run maximum tire pressure to increase mileage. Manufacturers on the other hand, emphasize 'ride comfort' & thus, want you to NOT run (still plenty safe) max pressures. Don't let manufacturers try to bs you that center tire tread wear is likely when pressures are higher. Gone are the days of bias tires - where that dynamic even came into play. Radials don't have that kind of issue. We've had Michelins last 90K miles w/ perfectly even wear running at their rated MAX Pressure.
     
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  13. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    some are gathering lots of long term data reflecting robustness of tesla packs too. Below represents last years #'s. Still - some were well on their way to heading past 150K kilometers.

    [​IMG]

    In short, traction packs have proven to be pretty resilient to capacity loss.
    .
     
  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Certainly the ones with active temperature management. Although much improved, the air-cooled ones still bother me.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  15. Ferrarilover

    Ferrarilover Active Member

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    IMG_4166.jpg



    iPhone ?
     
  16. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Yep - they know what side of the bread their butter's on. That reminds me of our 2006 Lexus hybrid SUV. The original door sticker says OEM tire pressures are to be 36Lbs. Customers were so outraged as their tires wore out quite prematurely - they finally owned up to the fact that they wear a lot better at 44Lbs. Bottom line, sometimes the all-knowing tire folks are not all-knowing after all. But hey - ymmv.
    We have Continental's on our Model X. Both front & rear are different sizes, & they don't fit on any other vehicle. Even worse, no other manufacturer makes the specific size for those particular rims. Needless to say we are going to be dumping these pigss as soon as they prematurely wear, as many owners are already discovering. The only redeeming thing about our sad Continental story is that there is one BMW Rim that matches the model X bolt pattern / diameter /offset. Those will be going on, & the Tesla rims will find a home, even if it's the trash can. WAY too heavy, considering forged wheels are at least a dozen pounds lighter each.
    .
     
  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    As someone that does run at max psi, center wear is still possible with radial tires; saw it happen on my HHR. But it is something the old flour trick should catch. What is the max pressure while maintaining an even contact patch across the road is going to depend on the tire and the axle load.

    And how did they define overinflation? Over the car's label, which really only applies to the specific tire model that came on the car, or the tire's sidewall?

    Police departments run higher pressure in part, because it improves cornering.
     
  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I got a FLIR and took photos after a +10 mile run at 70 mph that I am still learning how to use. These were taken at night in a parking lot lit by yellow, sodium vapor lights. Also, I didn't use my tripod setup to fix the distance and orientation. Taking photos, I notice that some orientations seemed to washout the image. I suspect it was from the parking lot lights. Next time, I'll use an unlit parking spot and the tripod.
    [​IMG]
    • Passenger side front - a 7F temperature difference, the excessive negative camber is a problem.
    • Driver side front - shows the flaring that I suspect is from the lights but the negative camber is evident and a problem.

    [​IMG]
    • Driver side rear - looks reasonable but I'd like to retest.
    • Passenger side rear - negative camber is excessive.
    I've now have a bubble, camber gauge and two lift pucks. Once I get the driveway surveyed for a flat place, I can raise the car; remove the wheels and; check the camber with the bubble gauge. This will give empirical data for the camber adjustments.

    Bob Wilson
     
  19. LasVegasaurusRex

    LasVegasaurusRex Active Member

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    so you run the max pressure stated by the manufacturer for your tire as opposed to door sticker? is this printed on the sidewall or you have to look it up?
     
  20. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    It is called the maximum, cold temperature pressure embossed in the sidewall, typically by the bead.

    Bob Wilson
     
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