Why Priuses annoy me

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Amyshubby @ May 22 2006, 05:15 PM) [snapback]259384[/snapback]</div>

It doesn't do much good to tell people individually what they should or shouldn't do; what you hope is that we as a culture will make better decisions over time. You personally have made a well considered decision to live in an area you like and commute to a job you want to keep. Sounds sensible to me. What doesn't make sense is for a company to open an office in an already crowded area with no affordable housing or good public transportation. That's just making a problem worse. Obviously there are many, many factors that force businesses to locate in certain areas, so we can't make hard rules; I'm just talking about the general concept.

Years ago, in Chicago, when the John Hancock building was designed, it was envisioned as a high rise neighborhood: housing in the upper floors, offices in the middle, and retail space on the lower levels. A person could live, shop, and work without ever leaving the building. It sounded like a great idea, but it didn't work as planned. The people who lived in the Hancock building worked elsewhere, and vice versa.

Why don't these planned developments work as anticipated? I think one of the major problems is the lack of job stability. The butcher who lived above his own store knew he could stay there as long as he could keep his business running. The typical office worker today has no idea how long his job will last or where it will be next year. I always bought houses close to my work, only to have the company move, get bought out, or lay off staff. You can try and do the right thing, but it doesn't do much good when life is in a flux. It's not the individual's fault, it's a cultural issue.

I can live where I do and not have to commute only because I was fortunate enough to escape from industry. I have my own business which deals only with ideas (I design electronic products and software), so my business transportation costs are mostly the cost of sending bits over the Internet. It's not a luxury most people have.

The job issue is part of a bigger problem in this country. We have somehow allowed our life styles to spin out of control. Everything moves at a frenzied pace, scheduled to the millisecond, with no time left to breathe. We "need" huge houses and fancy cars, big boats and expensive toys; more, more, more, faster, faster, faster. It's not sustainable.

I don't know how to fix it. Do you? If you do, I'll vote for you at next election.

Hang in there,
Tom

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ May 22 2006, 04:47 PM) [snapback]259368[/snapback]</div>

I live downtown in a village. Transportation of goods is an issue, especially in the winter. However, we do have rail, and also navigable water tied directly to the ocean. Maritime shipping remains one of the most cost effective methods of transportation. That said, they still charge us more for gasoline even though it comes in on a freighter - doesn't make any sense, but when have gasoline prices ever made sense.

My avatar is a photo of our boat taken at Beaver Island, which is only about 30 miles North of us. Beaver Island comes to mind when we talk about the cost of shipping goods. In the warm months, all goods are shipped to Beaver by boat, which is expensive. In the winter months, goods are shipped only by airplane, which is beyond expensive. It's costs a dollar to fly in one gallon of milk. The one hardware store on the island has a motto: "If we don't have it, you don't need it."

Tom

 

Hi bluntguy,

Well, we do not have HOV lanes here in Chicagoland, as there not enough lanes to put one aside. That probably has to do with Illinois being near the bottom of the federal tax money returned list. As I probably helped to pay for the CA HOV lanes, here are my comments.

Hybrids, technology and the SUV tax break have changed things since the original HOV lanes were started. Consequently the HOV law needs to catch up with the times. The HOV lanes should no longer be High Ocupancy Vehicle lanes, but High Efficiency Vehicle lanes. I think a good working number is 45 pasenger mpg combined EPA rating. That means that any vehicle with less than 22.5 mpg would need 3 pasengers to enter the the HOV lane. Any vehicle with worse than 15 mpg would need 4 pasengers to qualify. I think this technically fair playing field would free up the HOV lanes back to their previous situation by removing people who obey the letter of the law and flaunt its spirit.

The HEV stickers would then have a number on them for the number of people that have to be in the car to be legal in the HEV lane. 1 for a Prius or Hybrid Civic. 2 for cars like yours, 3 for your typical cross over SUV, 4 for the Escalade class SUV and of course vehicles without EPA mileage ratings (Hummers) would never get a sticker.

If this country is serious about really getting off the imported-oil-addiction, then this all makes sense.

 

zzz

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bluntguy @ May 22 2006, 06:32 PM) [snapback]259433[/snapback]</div>

bluntguy, eyeguy here...where's Priusguy???

Anyway, don't forget the other big reason that we drive Prius'. The Prius is a very green car. Compare these numbers from the EPA Green Vehicle Guide: (0- worse 10 - best)

2000 Honda Civic (it only went back to 2000, sorry, no 1996):
Air Pollution Score=2
Greenhouse Gas Score=8

2007 Honda Fit
Air Pollution Score=6
Greenhouse Gas Score=8

2006 Toyota Prius
Air Pollution Score=9
Greenhouse Gas Score=10

I drive a Prius not for the money savings, but for it's Green score. It's simply a better car for the Earth.

 

Nice idea. I have to wonder though about the inevitable bureaucracy and cheating that comlex admnistrative systems always seem to engender. There has to be a law named after somebody for this phenomenom

I can imagine an rfid that identifies the car as a 1 - 5 class, and an infra-red reader to count bodies.

 

Hi bluntguy,

The Prius has the Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive. With this system the maintenance costs are allot less than a standard car. This is due to the fewer parts in the transmission section primarily. Additionally, there is not a starter or alternator to ware out, as the hybrid system generator does quadrupple duty as a supersized starter, alternator, transmission variable ratio gearing (in combination with the power electronics, something like an electric torque converter), besides being the hybrid system generator.

My Prius cost $23,200 , which is about the lowest MSRP cost for one. With the tax credit this year, it cost about $20K. If you buy a Prius in the next 4 months, you will probably get this tax credit as well.

The way I reason that lower maintanence was worth it, even if I do not own the car long enough to see maintenence expense, is that somebody would be willing to buy a used very reliable car for more than a used car about the right age for the starter, alternator, transmission and a second set of front brakes about to go. That appears to be the case, search on "Used Prius" on this website. My estimate is that over the life of the car the standard vehicle will see $46 / 1K miles more maintanence than a Prius. Now, this maintanence difference will not be apparent first few K miles of driving, or even the first few tens of K of ownership. But the guy willing to buy the car used from you will make sure he gets that money out of you. Otherwise, cars that have half their usable mileage left would sell for half the initial cost. And we know that does not happen with standard cars. More like 1/3 if its an economy car of good reputation.

At $3/gallon, every 1 K miles in a Prius saves about $33.75 over a Fit (50 mpg for Prius, vs 32 for Fit). I used those mpg values based on my experience driving both a Prius, and a similar car to the FIT and what actual mileage I get/got versus the EPA ratings.

Combining the maintenance and fuel cost differences, it takes 92 K miles to break even without the tax credit, and 63 K miles with the tax credit. Now there is also the cost of money (that you would make savings on if you bought the cars cash, or have to pay interest on if you buy with a loan). This depends on the amount if driving done per year, ie per length of interest (savings or loan) period involved. The revised Consumer Reports article indicated a 400 dollar advantage to the Prius ( even with some reverse reality maintenance numbers and equivalent devaluation, versus devaluation based on reliabile life left in asset) with a loan purchase scenario over a 5 year ownership at 15K miles per year usage, in comparison to a Corrola (a somewhat smaller car).

The only real issue is as the Hybrid systems are new, the scale of production is low, and the cost of implementation is not appropriate for the smallest cars. This will probably take a few years to change.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bluntguy @ May 22 2006, 10:24 AM) [snapback]259262[/snapback]</div>

[1] You really should be hating upon my Prius. :lol: The State of California did not give me “Smug Status.†I have a Prius, and I have the HOV stickers . . . but I am not smug because I have the stickers. I am smug because I have a Prius!
I have not put the stickers on the car – they are in my file cabinet. Therefor, I will be driving in YOUR lane as a single occupant vehicle . . . and some other hybrid will be there too, because I have their sticker.

So bluntguy, do you feel the love for me staying out of the HOV lane, or hate because the other hybrid and I are now helping clog your lane? (apparently I don't care if our lane is slower, I get better mileage as a result ~ right?)

If extra cars are moving to the HOV lane, they are making your path clearer in the non-HOV lane. Not a reason to be hatin' Prii.

You wanna hear smug? I think all non-hybrid vehicles in the HOV lanes should be required to get out of OUR way. We high MPG hybrid and EV drivers are leading the way in fighting air pollution and oil consumption. In some high pollution areas, the pollution that comes out the Prii's tail pipe is less than that in the ambient air . . . So the Prius is actually cleaning the air! GET OUT OF OUR WAY YOU POLLUTING CAR POOLERS!!!! Your cars are not leaving cleaner air behind you! :angry: :angry: (j/k)

[2] 17 out of 100 were Hybrids? Please don't try to tell me that each time you counted, ALL 17 were single occupant. There are Prius car poolers too. (and for those, even single occupant hybrids should merge out of their way :lol: )

[3] “traffic might be a lot clearer for legitimate carpool drivers†. . . yea, right . . . if they weren't rubbernecking to see the accidents and other maladies which cause slowdowns out of nowhere.

[4] â€Those carpoolers likely will be more apt to just not carpool†. . . AND DO WHAT? Become a single occupant driver like you and help clog-up the slow lanes???? I DON'T THINK SO!!! :lol:
- - - -
MY SOLUTION: Get rid of “HOV†lanes. From now on, only high mileage/ low polluting vehicles would be allowed in the newly designated “HM/LP†lanes. Talk about an incentive to buy a HM/LP hybrid or EV!

 

ahh Blunt guy

I must command your bravey in venturing to a forum full of prii users, and share your opinion. I'm not sure what you were trying to get out of this.. were you possibly expecting that we'd go into our little corners and cry because of your not-so kind comments?

No, I'm not sobbing in a cubby hole, but I am a little saddened by your comment. You are a testiment that even the the smartest species on earth lack forseight. Do you really think this is about saving a few bucks on gas and mocking the guzzlers stuck in traffic as we speed by on a HOV lane? We, the prii drivers, are not that short sighted.

One day, I hope everyone will drive hybrids or cleaner vehicles. This is not just about saving gas - it's about preserving what our mother earth has given us by spewing less pollutants into our air and by preserving our natural resources. Imagine everyone in the world driving PZEVs or ZEVs and how that would clean up our air and slow down global warming. The earth we leave behind for our children will be so much cleaner than we had anticipated - We can only hope that something like this will happen in our life time. In the menatime, allow those who have the vision to think ahead to enjoy a little perk and save 10-15 minutes of commute time by riding in carpool lanes. After all, shouldn't those who have genuine concern for our ecosystem be given a little bit of a perk?

 

Hey Blunt et al, the original topic here is of interest because when I bought Prius, something like a used 1996 Civic was a primary alternative considered.

See the website

http://www.environmentaldefense.org/TailpipeTally/

to see how some of the older vehicles compare in pollution. Twice the CO; about 4X the NOx and HC is about right for 1996 Civic. Go much further back than that and things get dramatically worse.

As I was coming into the Los Angeles area where the air is not very tasty, the difference meant something to me. Paid the extra money.

Since then I have learned about the very low operating costs of Prius, and how enjoyable it is to drive. Would be pretty hard to return to a 20th century car now. I expect more from a car.

And less.

 

Why the heck does the business world insist on ALL sticking to this
insane 9-5 scheduling, that *causes* all that congestion in the first
place? If they ran on a rolling 24-hour schedule or at least wide
fuzzy windows of flex-time morning and evening, those senseless peak
loads would be spread out over much more time.
.
As long as people keep bitching about rush hours, they're missing
the easiest and *much* less stress-causing solution. If people need
to commute long distances in the first place -- when the gas runs
out that'll change, too.
.
_H*

 

Hmm. You know, I was in CA on vacation recently. Oddly, my impression of CA *before* I the trip was "cosmopolitan", "citizens of the world", etc. My observations? most were "CA-centric". i.e., just like everyone else - "local-area-centric". I suppose everyone is like that and I should have guessed as much.

A bit of a non sequiter, perhaps. But relevant to my thoughts... you live in CA, where there are HOV lanes and Prii / certain other hybrids can use them in non-HOV situations. And so they annoy you, and actually, I get that. Your car is pretty high mileage and relatively low-emissions (our 2nd car is a 2000 Civic, so I have some idea of what I speak.)

But in the meantime, many (I am presuming the majority) of US Prii are owned and driven in areas where HOV lanes and their attendant exceptions do not exist. For example, I live in MD, near enough to DC/NoVa to be aware that many people buy Prii for HOV stickers, but not in an area where I would ever use them. (MD does not, to my knowledge, have any HOV lanes at all except on the DC Beltway perhaps? certainly not along my commute or anywhere else I drive regularly.) There are many Prii here in MD, and as a group, we bought them for non-HOV reasons. And actually, I think, for more reasons than gas $ savings alone. Do we annoy you too? sorry, but if so, that's just silly!

(of course, you are entitled to be silly if you wish... all of us are sometimes...)

Anyway, you could do much worse than a Fit, hybrid or otherwise. I am a little puzzled by why a non-Prius owner would feel compelled to post his annoyance on a Prius board, though. I have never felt a desire to go post on an Escalade or Hummer board, much as I loathe those vehicles. Could be just me though...

- Michelle

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bluntguy @ May 22 2006, 07:32 PM) [snapback]259433[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bluntguy @ May 22 2006, 04:32 PM) [snapback]259433[/snapback]</div>

This reminds me of something I heard on a talk show a few years ago. A woman wanted to treat her unborn baby as the passenger so she could drive in the HOV lanes by herself.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jack Straw @ May 22 2006, 05:17 PM) [snapback]259453[/snapback]</div>

Well put.

Sorry you can't see the benefits of Prius ownership or maybe you just can't afford one. Most Prius owners are more concerned about Mother Earth than about the carpool lane. Too bad you cannot be as open minded.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aaf709 @ May 22 2006, 09:06 PM) [snapback]259556[/snapback]</div>

We're probably only a decision by the Supremes away from that.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ghostofjk @ May 22 2006, 09:40 PM) [snapback]259569[/snapback]</div>

Actually a friend was taking traffic school at the time and the teacher mentioned that if the woman had succeeded and an unborn baby is considered a passenger, then she would've been in violation of two laws;
you can't have two people wear the same seatbelt and you can't have two people behind the steering wheel.

I'm also reminded of an episode of The Simpsons...

Riviera: everybody!
Board: [unenthused] Dr. Nick.
-- At a malpractice board hearing,
"Twenty-Two Short Films About Springfield"

Chairman: Dr. Nick, this malpractice committee has received a few
complaints against you. [reads from clipboard] Of the 160
gravest charges, the most troubling are performing major
operations with a knife and fork from a seafood restaurant.
Riviera: But I cleaned them with my napkin.
Chairman: Misuse of the cadavers.
Riviera: I get here earlier when I drive in the carpool lane.