Why driving a Prius is really not enough

What is the waste of veggies? We call those boxes at the bottom of our fridge "the rotter." Occasionally we forget stuff down there until it becomes a soupy mess.

Unless we forget the chicken Day 1 rotisserie, Day 2 stir fry or casserole, Day 3 Sandwiches, and Day 4 bones go into making chicken broth. Although we tend to toss the skin and gizzards. I guess that could be part of the 35%.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GeoDosch @ Aug 20 2007, 04:28 PM) [snapback]499418[/snapback]</div>

Yes, I didn't believe the statement, and once you provided the reference, thank you, I could see how the incorrect conclusion was honestly drawn from that data, by not considering all of the system impacts.

Of course I have, but that wasn't what you said. You said that if everyone became vegans and didn't use chemicals, we wouldn't be able to sustain food production. That statement is not true. If you had said that if we got rid of the chemicals and did nothing else, then yes, we would not be able to produce as much food as we can now without some changes.

I apologize for offending you. I am trained as a scientist, and that's what we do. Within my field of endeavor we never take offense at such requests -- we take them as interest in our work.

I never said that we aren't equipped, hence "meant" to eat meat. I said that we have choices.

And well the doctor should have, since the mother apparently fed the baby a deeply flawed vegetarian diet. That's sad and unnecessary. There are countless examples of babies who have done very well, thank you, when weaned on to a vegetarian diet done correctly. It requires only a small amount of research and some common sense. (Raising Vegetarians Kids Isn't So Difficult.) Vegan I'm not so sure about. I hear that there have been many successes there as well, but it requires more attention to the details. Vegetarian is pretty easy to do right.

Drawing broad conclusions about vegetarianism from one bad example is fraught with peril. You can't prove a statement that "All A are B" with one example of A that is B. You can however prove that Not all A are B with one example of A that isn't B, hence the many examples of healthy, smart, strong vegetarian babies disproves the assertion that babies require meat in their diet.

Since it's easier to have a complete diet for an infant on meat than not, you can and do argue therefore that we were meant to eat meat. However it's hardly surprising that meat covers so many nutritional bases since, guess what, we're made out of meat! (Which, by the way, makes me wonder about the argument: "Meat tastes good, so we should eat it." Well, I'm made of meat, so I'm supposed to conclude ... what?)

Just because a meat diet is easy does not in any way mean that it's necessary.

In any case, your anecdote does not "prove" anything, except about your sister's friend, and about one doctor's ill informed opinion about the necessity of meat.

Um, no. I was using Darwin figuratively to mean evolution, which I thought was obvious. You don't need to invoke God to say that we were "meant" to eat meat. We clearly evolved to allow meat as part of our diet, and it is likely that the availability of abundant animal fat in our diet permitted the evolution of our large, energy-hog brains, which are responsible for this thread.

Though it's clear that we didn't get very far along that path of meat eating as compared to the carnivores, since most of our teeth are still geared towards foraging.

I don't think we would have ever evolved the brains we have without eating meat. Now that we have a planet with 6.6 billion people, we have to really start using those brains.

Nothing, except the energy that goes into your food is in fact comparable in magnitude to the energy that goes into driving. (Substantiated with references in previous posts on this thread.) So it is not a small effect and deserves serious attention. As much attention as the car you drive and how much you drive it.

I live three miles from work and I bicycle there and back. Alas, I still need a car.

I never said that. All I've been doing is establishing the consequences of eating meat, in particular beef. It's up to you to consider the value vs. the consequences. (Though as I pointed out in a previous post, it may no longer be up to you a few decades from now.)

As an engineer by trade, I believe in relative benefits and costs, not in absolutes. I have taken steps to reduce my landfill generation through recycling, to reducing my driving and using a Prius when I have to, and making more efficient use of electricity at home. Again as an engineer, I like to look at the numbers and attack the big swingers first. My car, my house electricity, and my food are the big swingers that I have direct control over.

There is far more that I can do, and I'm working on it. Are you?

Lastly, I don't tell you what you can and can't do, since I'm not in any legislature. All I'm doing is outlining the consequences of some of our actions and alternatives, as best we understand them.

P.S. It's spelled "hypocrite".

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madler @ Aug 20 2007, 08:59 PM) [snapback]499485[/snapback]</div>

Believe it or not, this is not my "work".

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madler @ Aug 20 2007, 08:59 PM) [snapback]499485[/snapback]</div>

You don't need a car. You choose to have a car. Just as I choose to eat meat.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madler @ Aug 20 2007, 08:59 PM) [snapback]499485[/snapback]</div>

I copied it word-for-word out of your earlier post. But this is why arguments on topics such as this are as futile as nailing jello to the wall.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madler @ Aug 20 2007, 08:59 PM) [snapback]499485[/snapback]</div>

That's great. So do I. Though some of the things each of us choose to adjust are different. You decided to give up eating meat. I don't think that's a worthy sacrifice, just as neither of us felt that giving up driving was acceptable. That's fine. But don't tell me that it's okay to keep driving, but wrong to eat meat (or try to make people feel guilty if they don't, which amounts to the same thing.)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madler @ Aug 20 2007, 08:59 PM) [snapback]499485[/snapback]</div>

No, you can't enforce what I can and cannot do, but you don't seem tolerant of those who don't agree with you. Some stated their opinions on why eating meat is bad. Others disagreed. And those who disagreed were ridiculed.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madler @ Aug 20 2007, 08:59 PM) [snapback]499485[/snapback]</div>

That's very clever of you; when you can't attack the idea, you attack the words.

Winston Churchill once said "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind, and won't change the subject." Well, as I'm tired of the circular arguments, and it doesn't seem anyone is willing or able to explain how the "don't eat meat" isn't hypocritical, I guess I'll change the subject by spending time on more meaningful threads.

 

It's threads like this that make this site worthwhile (unlike the religion thread in FHOP, love them as I do, they just don't offer anything practical at the end of the day).

Rae Vynn, for me I think it boils down to an addiction of sorts. I'm basically addicted to eating out and to soda. This is an issue that I'm working on, but man, it's tough. I've made "progress" though. I don't eat at Taco Bell or McDonalds anymore. I usually get the Frescata stuff at Wendy's and I get the small size (which is obscenely HUGE for a "small" size). I don't usually get fries, but I have to admit that I rarely get the salad (they suck). I usually get the chilli (loaded with beef of course). These days I limit myself to Subway and Boston Market for the most part. The hardest thing is going by Wendy's and thinking about 2 double stacks and fries... It's gotten easier.

The soda is the real bugger. I'm trying to limit myself to one (no refills). That's been somewhat successful, but there are days when I binge drink .

I think that's it in a nutshell. People just don't wanna deny the craving. For some folks, the craving was never there so it's really easy to change. When such a change fits with one's world view, then it's a no brainer. For me it's a tricky thing. To be overly dramatic, it reminds me of that bloke from The Matrix. Cypher. The one who sold out. That scene where he's dining with the Agent and he "eats" the steak. That scene pops into my head sometimes when I think about these sorts of issues.

My "twelve step" program is to reduce and then eliminate beef. It's a tough but manageable goal (hah, just misspelled goal as gaol, which is an older English spelling of jail, ). From there I suppose we'll have to find some good vegetarian meals to mix in during the week. My wife does this now, but I'm not a huge fan of most of the ones she's found so far. My one concern is that since I'm pretty active I'm gonna have to eat loads of food to get enough protein.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rae Vynn @ Aug 20 2007, 05:35 PM) [snapback]499421[/snapback]</div>

It's only through technology that humans can be vegetarian, let alone vegan. That's not meant as a put down, it's just a statement of fact. Without agriculture we couldn't be vegetarians. Without modern nutrition science we couldn't to it well.

That aside, as Madler stated earlier. It's about making sound choices. We have the technology and information to do that.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GeoDosch @ Aug 20 2007, 07:08 PM) [snapback]499511[/snapback]</div>

Fair enough. I won't argue the distinction between need and want.

Not any of my posts. I just went back and searched for those words.

Ah, so that's what I'm doing. I'm trying to make people fell guilty. No, I'm trying to increase awareness with actual information. And, sigh, I never said driving was okay, nor did I ever say it was wrong to eat meat. In fact in one post I pointed out that simply reducing everyone's beef consumption (as opposed to eliminating it), would have a significant beneficial impact on carbon emissions.

I am really confused about who you are talking about. I haven't ridiculed anyone. I'm not clear on how trying to set incorrect statements straight is "intolerance". I am trying to only deal in facts. I'm perfectly happy to have people disagree with me. It is you who seems to be reacting emotionally to even so much as asking for a reference.

The spelling correction was a test, and I got exactly the overblown reaction I expected. Thank you for playing. (Okay, maybe now I'm ridiculing. But it doesn't matter since you're not reading this thread anymore.)

 

Has anyone yet suggested the word "foodprint"? (being that portion of our ecological 'footprint' made by our diet)

 

In reply about the child who suffered as a vegetarian, I have several contrary examples. I know of a vegan family with 3 children. The younger two were brought up totally vegan, while the first got some dairy for a few years. They are all the most insufferably healthy people I've ever met. Their skin is clear, they have no allergies, and they never seem to be sick. The children are all several inches taller than their parents are. Of course they are all at a healthy weight, although they never seem to pay any attention to it.

Another example is Scott Jurek. He wins foot races like the Western States 100 and the Badwater Ultramarathon. He is vegan, and believes that his nutritional program is necessary in order to perform as well as he does. He excels starting at about 80 miles, when his meat eating competition fades. If you're up for the competition, the Badwater race is 135 miles long from the bottom of Death Valley up to Whitney Portal. In the middle of summer. Tell me just what he's lacking in terms of nutrition.

And then there's a business associate who will go unnamed. He is the carnivore's carnivore. His business is getting federal contracts, and he goes about it by taking people to expensive restaurants. He eats the most flavorful food expensive restaurants can provide. Sound like the dream job? He recently went to the doctor because he "didn't feel so good". The lab work came back with a cholesterol level of 700. I didn't know a human would still be alive with such a level. He's had some sort of heart imaging done that indicates that he's developed collateral circulation around some major arterial blockages. I don't know what drugs he is on, but I'd bet there are quite a few.

I look at these examples, admittedly extreme, and it's obvious which direction I prefer.

In addition to the production cost of the food these people eat, their medical footprints are also vastly different. Vegans suffer very little heart disease, and even less diabetes. The high living salesman costs the medical system far more than more prudent consumers. This guy will probably live another 20 years as a dietary cripple, feeling miserable, but extolling the finer aspects of the food he consumes. It galls me that I have to pay into the same medical insurance pool as he draws from.

 

I think that harm, like good, is cumulative. Anything we do to move away from the former and towards the latter, is positive.

 

<_<
Just wanted to put my two cents in, although the thread has gone a little stale.

The amount of meat that most Americans eat in their diet is only a result of social evolvement. The rise in fast food industries, recipe books, cooking shows, all pushing meat at the front and center of almost every meal. I don't think it is a matter of whether or not meat is supposed to be in our diets or not, for every culture has a different type of diet, and I'm sure most of them has had meat in it for a very long time.

The same goes with milk and formula for babies. Babies were meant to be breastfed, and were given the dietary equivalents of whatever it is the mother ate, meat or not. When babies are weaned, they should not be drinking cow's milk, it is not meant for human consumption. They should be getting their nutrition from other solid food sources. For more information on that check up on www.nomilk.com There is an article "Cow's Milk is the "Perfect Food" for Baby Calves, But Many Doctors Agree it is Not Healthy for Humans " about halfway down the page that I think all parents should read. But yet, society has evolved most mothers into thinking first formula. Luckily, the tide is turning and more new mothers are getting educated into at least trying to breastfeed first.

Today there are diseases that are a result of nutrient-deficient diets that are more common than ever before. And what does your doctor suggest? A pill. The best solution is a diet richer in fruits and vegetables. Certain cancer growth such as breast cancer and prostate cancer have been linked to the meat and dairy products in our diets. For more information on that check out www.cancerproject.org

I personally believe everything in moderation is the key, and animal products of any kind should be kept in check if you so choose in your diet. If you find yourself or someone you love suddenly afflicted by a disease or a cancer, going vegan is only one thing that you can do that wouldn't hurt to try.

I personally am half Asian and like 50% of those of Asian descent have found that I have a dairy allergy, not lactose intolerance, and have passed it onto my daughter. Since nursing her, I had to go dairy-free, and I've noticed such a difference in my energy level, my ability to manage my weight, as well as not having to manage allergies as much anymore. I've continued to be dairy-free for my health, and also have cut down on my family's meat consumption for everyone's health. I don't necessarily do it for the environment, but I feel if everyone were to just try it for a few weeks, maybe you'll see some big differences too.

As for the enviornmental impact, if meat were to become the side dish instead of the main course, I think that is all that would be needed to keep things in check for awhile.

 

10 deep breathes everyone.
If you want a sustainability hippy discussion I suggest a sustainability hippy forum. This forum is a car forum that is by nature a consumerist forum. If we were all really serious about saving the environment at all cost none of us would have a computer or a car.

There are all type of people in this world, get over it.
Just because a subject is serious doesn’t mean people can’t have a laugh, gloss over it, so what? It keeps the topic active, even hot so does it matter?

Most of us are on line at home (I assume) so are relaxing, getting over the hard work of the day/week. Some people wind down by making a smart arsed remark now and then, so what? Just because you make a joke, even a really bad joke doesn’t make you stupid.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(patsparks @ Aug 25 2007, 07:23 PM) [snapback]502192[/snapback]</div>

This is that. I don't see a whole lot of difference between "Environmental Discussion" and "Sustainability Hippy Forum".

Welcome to the sustainability hippy forum!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(patsparks @ Aug 25 2007, 07:23 PM) [snapback]502192[/snapback]</div>

Many people consider their purchase of a Prius as an environmental statement. The smaller environmental footprint of the Prius gives them pride in their responsibility.

This tread raises the issue of animal product consumption with regards to environmental impact. The issues are the same, but the awareness of it not. It is a quality of life issue for the future.

I can think of one reason that someone in Australia might be interested in the impact of food production.

If animal product food production causes more global warming than plant food production, and that seems to be established fact, then it also contributes to rising sea levels. Al Gore presented a map of the areas subject to flooding. A likely consequence of global warming is that low-lying areas like Bangladesh will be totally inundated. So a billion or so people currently living in Southeast Asia will be looking for a new place to live. Some will go to China, and others toward India. Those places are already crowded. How about a large, relatively empty, land to the south? Get ready for a billion climate refugees fleeing to Australia. You will welcome them of course, wont you?

 

Well, to be fair the population of Southeast Asia (according to wikipedia) is a mere 568,300,000.

 

"Rae Vynn" (If that's even near being your real name)

Why don't you eliminate creating Carbon Dioxide by not breathing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rae Vynn @ Aug 25 2007, 11:00 PM) [snapback]502206[/snapback]</div>

Yeah because crop farmers aren't raping the land right? "Sir" Paul McCartney - that means nothing, just that he paid the queen of england for an extension on her mansion.

 

Even before getting the Prius, our family converted to be vegetarians, with a few small exceptions.
- eggs (free reign only)
- fish & seafood (about twice a month only)

Personally I'll eat some other meat, usually to be polite somewhere else, or that particular restaurant has nothing good on it's menu. Rare.
The occasional chicken, but part of a big meal.

That said, our family hugely reduced it's carbon footprint.
A year ago we got a Prius and a Yaris, to replace the Toyota Sienna & Corolla. Reduced even more.

We favor products with minimal packaging, local produce, bio-certified products / produce.

I'll even buy local produce over bio-certified, since most of the bio-certified produce comes from the US-South, and being in Montreal, Quebec, it just doesn't make sense in the summer.

Our familie's 90% carbon redux offsets our large 5-bedroom A/C house, inground heated pool.
Efficient heat pumps are used, and the housing standards in Quebec for insulation & quality are the best in North America.

So when I hear people talk & complain on this subject, and I explain what we've done as a family. If they only reduced their red meat intake by half it would help some.

I think Al Gore's latest message is a good one, everyone reduce a bit, instead of of excess.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fred S @ Aug 29 2007, 08:04 AM) [snapback]503689[/snapback]</div>

Ah, blasting other people is so easy, right?

This is a gray area - trucking meat 1,500 miles or trucking strawberries, cantaloupes & broccoli?
Both effectively "rape" the land, and both give "back" to the land, in a closed loop.

However, there is always loss, all things being equal. Small animals will suffer from any food crops, entire forests disappear to make room for cattle.

Pound for pound, though, beef & pork pollute much higher, followed by chicken, than ANY food crop out there, for one simple reason :

You have to feed those animals....from food crops. By reducing demand for meat, food crops will diversify to what it was 50 years ago.

Now it's all corn, all soy, all wheat (with crop rotation of course), most of it going into producing hamburgers and bacon. It's ridiculous.

What's strange with the Meat Eaters - is how violently they respond.

For Gaia's sake - just reduce your meat intake !!! You don't need 21 meat portions per week, try reducing 1/3 by diversifying. Cereal / toast in the morning, meatless sandwich for lunch (lots of substitutes out there).
Then for supper, limit the total meat on your plate by no more than 1/4 of the plate.

Simple stuff, your not being vegetarian, but eating wisely - and much more healthy.
When eating meat, avoid pork & beef from unknown sources or just because it's cheap.

Since you're cutting from 21 portions to 7 per week, splurge and buy locally produced meat products that are of higher quality. You don't want to be eating Brazilian / Mexican beef & pork, do you?

Avians have the highest food-crop to pounds of meat, so eat more chicken & turkey US bred & sold.

So Fred S, get off your blasting. Vegetarians & vegans know what they're getting into, and no food is truly "Green" unless you grow it yourself. You don't need to rub it our faces.

Oh, Fred S, post true stuff. Your Online Reputation will benefit. If "Sir" Paul McCartney actually paid for an mansion extension, back up that assertion. If you don't like the guy, just say so. I also don't like the super rich people, no matter how noble they are, this "Sir" included.
The way you posted that statement makes you sound "troll"ish.

The way I read you, you're offended by this thread, thinking vegetarians & vegans think of themselves as superior to meat-eating people, and you're lashing out. I forgive you

Oh, for the record, all vegetarians & vegans reading this - calm yourselves. Provoking / shocking the others is counter-productive.
I've met quite a few in RL and online that come across like a desperate Amway/Quixtar/MLM associate trying to make you "see the light". :lol:

Best advice I ever had - eat what your grandmother ate when she was 12 yrs old, and only food she would recognize....Granola Bars....hard...to..resist...