Why did you choose a Prius Prime over a fully EV vehicle?

Even if the comparison is Toyota PP vs Nissan LEAF, if one follows manufacture recommended maintenance schedule, the LEAF is likely to cost more to service than PP over first 5 years of ownership for someone driving 15Kmiles/year. If all the maintenance is done at a dealer, PP will have total of 12 services (every 5Kmiles). In the US, the first 5 services are free by Toyota Care. 7 remaining services, the only gas engine specific services are 4 oil and lube, and 2 engine filter changes. That would be extra cost of maybe ~$200. Compare to this, Nissan Leaf requires service every 7.5K miles, but includes brake fluid change every 15K. Total of 8 services over 60Kmiles, no free maintenance. The service cost maybe less for regular PP DIYers than regular LEAF DIYers. The LEAF services includes four EV Battery Usage Report over 60K miles that may requires dealer visit to diagnose the battery health.

 

There's often a higher up front cost (purchase) for a full EV...which would go a long way to paying for any fuel or maintenance in a PHEV.

 

For my needs a full electric car was not possible this time around but one thing is clear from buying the Prius Prime. Once they decide to do it, I do not think Toyota will have any problems building full electric cars without a gas engine.

 

Comes down to the fuel costs. A BEV in Europe might already equal in total cost to an ICE car. With it's higher cost, a PHEV coming out ahead of a BEV depends on how many miles it does on EV. Even with most of the miles on EV, there is still the maintenance costs of the engine.

 

Which isn't much on these particular engines.

And I live in North America, in an area with limited EV rebates, so again, the entry cost to the BEV is significantly more. . Plus, in my situation, if going with a BEV, I'd need to buy a Level 2 charger plus the install. I've done the math, maintenance included, and the ROI of the BEV vs. PHEV was several years.

Of course, YMMV depending on where you live, how much you drive, rebates, etc

I always hear BEV owners saying "I save so much money vs. ICE cars! ", but they always seem to conveniently leave out the larger initial outlay of cash in the beginning.

 

The 7,500 mile service is just for tire rotation on the Leaf. I get those for free at Discount Tires. The brake fluid change every 15k is overkill. I don't know of any Leaf owners that change it that often. The brake fluid should be inspected though. Cabin filter changes is the same as the Prime. The battery usage report is free for the first two years.

 

That is the same with PP for 5Kmiles. Those are basically just tire rotation and free multipoint inspection. The point is, there really isn't much difference in the cost of maintenance for PP vs Leaf.

That's good to know. Do you know what a typical dealer would charge for this service after the first two years? Better yet, can it be performed DIY? Nissan Leaf is the most likely my next vehicle. In fact, if our local dealer did stock the trim (base S) offered for $129/mo lease, I might have been driving it now. The biggest problem with any BEV in our region is availability.

 

You live in CA, you still get up to $7,500 tax credit on all EVs except Tesla and Chevy. Isn't there a $2000 EV rebate as well? If you commute less than 50 miles daily, you can charge using the included Level 1 EVSE. My Leaf came with a Level 2 EVSE with a 120V adapter.

 

I think it's around $60. You have to get it done at the dealer. There's a lot of battery info you can get using an OBD2 reader an an App named Leafspy.

If your commute is less than 60 miles a day, go ahead and get the base S.

 

Any BEV, if I buy or more likely lease, will be strictly for daily drive commuting (~40 miles/day) only. It doesn't matter even if it has 300+ miles EV range, there is no charge station in our area. I will not take BEV on a long trip knowing the difficulty of finding the charge station and even if I find one, will take way too long to recharge. I will drive PP with a 640 miles range and convenience of 5 min refuel at any gas station nationwide. The biggest problem for me to jump to BEV is that I can't find one at a local dealer. The closest dealer I can get Leaf S is over 300 miles away. If I buy or lease one there, I can't drive it home. LOL

But, all of this plan to switch to BEV eventually is now on hold. I am not driving much nowadays. Working from home, I really do not need to think about a new car for a while.

 

I don't live in CA.

Our max credit here is $5k.

 

Your profile location is listed as CA, which I took for Canada.

Which is true for most modern engines. For those that don't DIY, the costs of taking it in can really start adding up. But it is much lower than the cost of fuel for the engine.

With the various incentives and discounts here, people were buying the Prime because it was cheaper than the regular Prius, @Salamander_King himself traded in a 1 or 2 year old Prime for an older one because of those generous deals.

The Level 2 EVSE is a separate item. Some may not need it. For those that do, its cost isn't all on the car, it is also a home improvement. Future home buyers will be more likely to have a car that needs charging, and the electrical hardware is also a plus to those with a RV or high power shop tools. So value added to the house needs to be factored into the ROI.

As you said, YMMV. The old Ioniq electric was less than $2500 more than the Prius Prime in MSRP. Sales and incentives can have it much closer, and while the Ioniq had short range on paper, it was more than enough for most peoples daily use. Then the segment ICE competitors to Tesla's could actually have higher price tags; the Model 3 starts at $37,999 today, and the BMW 3 series starts at $41,250.

The report I saw was for Europe. Fuel prices are much higher there. So recouping the higher front end cost of a BEV will take less time there when compared to an ICE. A hybrid could be the more economical choice, but they are still a smaller subset of ICE cars at this time. It won't be easy saying how a PHEV would fare; depends on its EV range, and many are higher priced upscale and performance trims. The Prius Prime is cheap in North America. It isn't in Europe with the import tax.

You are comparing Leaf severe duty service to the Prime's standard. What constitutes severe duty for Nissan will have Toyota calling for oil changes every 5000 miles, and the fine print of ToyotaCare says it covers normal factory scheduled maintenance, as such it will only cover 2 oil changes. So 5 brake fluids to 13 oil changes.

Normal Leaf schedule calls for a brake fluid change at 30k miles or every two years. Which is more often than what other manufacturers call for, but is what I've read recommended from other sources. Planning it for the Camry this week at little over 4 years.
https://www.nissanusa.com/content/dam/Nissan/us/manuals-and-guides/leaf/2020/2020-nissan-leaf-service-maintenance-guide.pdf

 

OK, my mistake on the frequency of the brake fluid change for a Leaf on less Severe schedule. Still, the cost difference on the services of PP and Leaf is negligible, IMHO. As for the brake fluid change, Toyota recommends no scheduled interval. That is another thing to debate, but if you follow the manual recommendation to the point. There is no brake fluid replacement cost for the PP. Even if both cars are serviced very similarly, PP has Oil and lube every 10Kmiles, and engine filter every 30Kmiles, whereas Leaf has EV Battery Usage Report every 15Kmiles. It will be a very similar total maintenance cost for either car.

Furthermore, for my region, at least at the current gasoline price, the cost of fuel is higher for BEV than super-efficient gasoline hybrid engine equipped Prius Prime. That fact alone gives an edge to Prius Prime over any other BEVs on the market for me.

 

Yes indeed, I am in Canada.

As with US states, every province here is different.

My province is $5k for a Leaf and $2500 for a Prime. Both Federal credits. No provincial credits. That's it. And both of those are AFTER sales taxes, sadly.

This ends up being a difference of $8k. Which is plenty of money for fuel and maintenance. Especially in a fuel sipper with minimal maintenance requirements like a Prime.

Again, YMMV.

And yes, I agree. Fuel costs in Euroland are bonkers.

 

I found the same thing out here, quite irritatingly.

Unless you're charging for free OR at home, it's cheaper to run gas in the Prime. Plus no range anxiety in the colder climate here.

 

My apologies, I saw CA and automatically assumed California.

 

It strikes me sometimes odd they need incentives to help sell plug in hybrids. I can see incentives for full electric cars to help get the industry going. But plug in hybrids with gas engines are just super economical with few down sides compared to regular Ice cars. Now hybrids even look like regular cars but they save you gas money. I am fully for subsidies to encourage cars that are better for the environment. I think the sooner we go away from an oil based economy the better but I am just surprised it is necessary. I struggle to understand why people will still buy gas guzzling SUV's when there are so many other choices available.

 

Because lots of car enthusiasts (me) love cars for the sound, driving excitement, etc

If we weren't able to have a couple other exciting cars in the driveway, we wouldn't own a PHEV or EV...or even an economy/frugal car.

I find them quite dull to drive..and even the fast ones do little for me on a visceral level.

Prius is techno cool though. But despite that...it couldn't be our only car.

 

I don't disagree with you, but car enthusiasts are a minority. For most people, price is probably the most important factor. If a PHEV or EV is a few thousand more than a hybrid or gas car, they won't buy it. Another part of the problem is lack of marketing. People don't understand these cars, and the auto makers don't seem to be trying to do anything to change that situation.

I got a $4500 federal tax credit and a $5000 state tax credit on my Prime, and to be honest I think that's too much. But I'll take advantage of it if it's there. If the credits were lower I probably would have bought a less expensive hybrid or a used EV or something like that. But I think PHEVs are an important transitional technology until batteries and charging work better for large vehicles and long drives.

 

I do not know...it depends what you mean by car enthusiasts. There's all kinds.

I mean...the people here are definitely enthusiasts in my eyes. Just a different kind of enthusiasm. I have no doubt people here love their cars every bit as much as I loved my other cars. FWIW, I'm just as happy hanging out here talking cars as I am other forums.

I think, generally, people are just more comfortable with ICE cars..for many reasons. Price, familiarity, infrastructure, etc. There's more comfort zone for them in an ICE. And I understand why.

Just glad we can all (mostly) coexist peacefully.