Why America Must Build the Car That Overtakes a Tesla

I think being able to drive to work backwards is entertaining.

 

maybe you need glass

 

16.9 is the comparable behind the second row of seats number.
Chevrolet Bolt Debut - $30,000*, 200 Miles Range, 2016 Arrival Confirmed- Photos, Specs, Videos - Inside EVs
If a bolt is 57 its with the seats folded down. You decide if you need more body room back there. Most east coast mobsters like a trunk for the bodies, as a hatch back may show them even under a tarp. Anyway here is a picture of the cargo area from the above link.

 

i do need glass!how high is the ceiling? looks like thats how they achieve some cubes.

 

I replied to some posts from here on this thread, 2017 Chevy Bolt at CES 2016 | Page 2 | PriusChat

 

Geez. I would have NEVER expected this. In the early 2000 Toyota was on an ascending path of making the cars of the future. GM was on the path of (well deserved) extinction.

Now in 2016 GM is getting ready to market a 200 mile range EV to the entire US while Toyota may get around to making a PiP that gets like 30 miles (!) electric for a few states sometime long after the Bolt comes out.

 

That's what happens when you're afflicted with hydrogen myopia.

 

ya, it's awful how far behind toyota has fallen. nobody buys their cars anymore.

 

Old GM probably thought the same when they were number one.

 

gm didn't have the best selling hybrid on the road.

 

Gas is cheap, so there isn't a mad rush for alt energy vehicles right now. This defense of corporate bullheadedness is weird.

 

only if you believe that ev's are the future, and toyota has no shot at catching upotoh, if you agree with post #86, it's not that difficult.

 

Toyota and the OP article think fuel cells are the future. That people will spend a lot to get this in the lab solar catalytic cracking of hydrogen will spread like wildfire. Unfortunately in california, Japan, and germany, hydrogen infrastructure is proving much harder to build and more expensive than any of these advocates claimed even 2 years ago. Take california for example, 2 years ago CARB and Toyota were saying 44 hydrogen stations would be done at the end of last year, with 46% renewable and 200 mirai on US roads. Instead we have 18, 6 retail SMR, 6 mobile higher ghg than retail SMR at toyota dealerships, and 6 demo stations. That means no dealer or retail stations are renewable, forget about those lofty promises, so it shouldn't be a suprise that toyota only leased a disapointing 72 as orders were postponed because of poor infrastructure. I would not be that this situation will change fast. Every year the promises fail. Maybe in a decade, or 20 years, will these folks get their act together. The lobbyists though are doing great. Anouther $8000 of federal tax credits and more federal hydrogen fueling money was slipped into the latest congressional spending bill. That brings tax credits up to $13000 + 9 zev + HOV sticker for each fcv, giving approximately $31,000 if credits are valued at $2000 incentive to sell these things into the poor infrastructure, with $220M of california hydrogen subsidies and now some more doe subsidies for fueling.

In the mean time the model S sold 50,000 units last year. Remember when the mirai was supposed to kill model S sales as people would want the more convienient refueling? GM showed off bolt protypes that is promised by the end of the year for about $15,000 less than the mirai after government incentives. Audi, vw, and nissan are all promising 200 mile bevs. The things these hydrogen proponents were saying were impossible only 5 years ago are happening. Many purchase solar or wind themselves. To get renewable hydrogen, people are depending on the government paying over a million for each station.

Can toyota catch up? Why not. It can probably pay tesla to design a car, and be technically caught up in 4 years. But GM dissed the prius in 2003, and has taken until now to produce an efficient hybrid (malibu hybrid). Management intransigence even after they admitted their mistakes take a long time. Toyota needs to stop with this future bs, and get serious soon. The longer they put out anti plug-in messaging, the harder it will be for them to move to better technology.

 

i don't remember the mirai being predicted to kill model s sales. but that's not my point. i disagree with with your analysis of toyota's abilities vs gm's, but these are only opinions. we have no basis in fact.
even though i want an ev someday, i'm not chuffed with toyota's current position. the cars they are producing today are as good or better than most, and i believe they can turn on a dime if necessary. there is no reason to think they will be nearly as slow as gm.

 

In 2013 reporters asked musk if cars like the mirai would kill the market for its BEVs. Musk responded that fuel cells were bulls&%t, that they were good for space travel, but would not slow tesla's growth. That was the context of the quote. Toyota's bob carter at CES bragged that Musk was all wrong, that even in 2015 toyota would be selling 5000-10,000 fcv and after that they would grow fast. Fuel cells were the future. Who would pay for an expensive tesla when a fuel cell could be filled up so conviently. It was claimed even in 2014 that fuel cell infrastructure would be much cheaper than battery infrastructure. Last year when musk was asked again, he said he would rather not comment. He didn't want to be bashing fuel cell cars, but the numbers just could not be there. He said in 3 years everyone will see how foolish fuel cells are for high volume. Now with low gas prices and Carb, First Elements, and Toyota's woes on not being able to get the cars and stations delievered, how can we take those boiserous claims that fuel cells are the future seriously. Remember the Lexus ad of the leaf at a quick charger taking 4 hours to fill up? Remember the press releases by toyota saying bevs would never catch on? It is all out there. The lexus add with the i3-rex, with the gasoline door erased in post editing, but you can see artifacts. There is a lot of anti-plug-in culture at Toyota/Lexus. First they said you couldn't build a 300 mile bev, then when tesla did it, they said you couldn't sell them. Now tesla has increased sales over 50%/year for the last 2 years, and the lower priced model 3 is in sight, toyota is saying, well only tesla can do it. The bolt must be a slap in the face to those that have been dismissing the technology and costs for so long.

The problem is When management goes out on a limb to bash a technology as Lutz did, even when they admit it was wrong (with gm they (lutz and wagoner) admitted it in 2008) it takes a long time to get the culture behind that thing you were bashing. Its taking until about 2017, 9 years to change course on that, and they missed high gas prices. IMHO osiago and akio toyoda are trying to get toyota more technology neutral so that they can shift, but board chairman Uchiyamada and american toyota's lentz and carter seem really anti-plug-in. I don't expect big plug-in numbers until 2025, but now is the time that toyota needs to stop this stuff and pivot.

 

does carter still work for toyota?

 

I believe Toyota definitely has the capability to build a great EV.
That is the main reason I am so disappointed in Toyota, because they had the lead, and gave it up.

I don't think they could put out a great EV by the end of the week, but I do agree they could move in that direction fairly quickly. A year or two perhaps.

However, I question their desire to do that, even though it is becoming obvious all the anti-plug rhetoric is quickly being proven wrong.

 

It took them almost 7 to do a redesign of prius. I would put it at 6 years to do a 200 mile bev if they did it themselves, 4 if they had tesla design it with them. Toyota can't even redesign a head unit (entune) in 2 years. Car companies are slow, and high volume.

Definitely they could have started years ago and we don't know it. That Rav4 ev was less than 4, about 2, but they should have taken longer and gotten more things right. They definitely said they rushed it, and it showed. 4 years from now batteries will be cheaper and tesla, nissan, and gm should be out of tax credits, gasoline will be more expensive, it will be a good time to put out a 200+ mile bev Plenty of time if they start now. They can even benchmark the i3 and bolt and volt and model S, etc and take the best ideas of each. I don't think they are ready to stop fighting plug-ins yet.

Yep. Carter and Lentz are still both there. I assume they will move to Dallas soon.

 

likely only two things will change their direction: obvious loss of sales to ev's, and/or shifting of fcev moneys.
it's impossible to know what any manufacturer is thinking with so much subsidy funding floating around, unless someones emails get leaked...

i wish someone would ask him what happened to his forecasti think toyota could turn the phev into an ev pretty easily, if they had enough incentive. two years, tops.

 

I haven't given up on Toyota bring out some great PHEV's.