WHATS THE BEST OIL? 0W20? GOOD?

MTFC:

You didn't ask me, but my vote would be for one of the Champion Labs products, and within that family, my favorites are K&N and Mobil-1. I have previously posted that Bosch Premium is a CL-made product too, but apparently, they recently bought out Purolator, and just today in a local Autozone store, I found that many of the BPs are now using the Puro design. I don't think the Puro is bad, many really like them. I prefer the CL filters because they are simply built like tanks. As you can see from the pictures below, I've cut up many filters to see the insides for myself. Admittedly, an internal filter collapse is a rare event (but I have seen photos of several cases of failure). That said, I think a CL filter will have the lowest chance of such an event. They have the sturdiest metal end caps (no cardboard), with the element deeply glued into the caps with rock hard cement. The centertubes* are heavy gauge metal and securely fastened to the end caps. The ADBV (anti drain back valve) is substantial, and mates well with the intake holes (though because of the butt up mounting in a Prius, this is irrelevant). The bypass valves are of all-metal construction (except the valve face itself, which is firm silicone). All of the other makes I've taken apart are deficient in one or more of these areas. The Frams are deficient in ALL areas of comparison. Here are a couple pics you might find interesting. The device in the foreground of the first is what I use to cut 'em up.


And here's a better look at the insides of an M1 (K&N is virtually the same except for the "nut" on top of the K&N, the paint job, and the filtration media):


* Watch out for a newer type of Champ Labs product, the so-called "E-Core" design, which does away with the metal centertube, replacing it with a plastic cage instead. Jury still out on these, but frankly, the design does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling.

 

I forgot to mention this.
When i changed my oil at 999 miles (a few days ago), although the oil on the dipstick looked extremely clean, if not almost clear, when it dropped into my drainpan it was a dark brown. Kinda made me glad I dropped the oil this early.

also...
Regarding crush washers.
I bought 2 from my Toyota dealer, using the exact part #. When they were handed to me, I asked the counter guy if these were the correct washers. They looked different than what I had seen in an article about Prius oil changes. So when I took off the factory installed washer, sure enough, the factory washer looks like aluminum sandwiched between hard black rubber or fiber. The washers I bought are black in color and look like two pieces of fiber stuck together. They have the same I.D., but larger O.D.
I just thought it a little strange, or maybe Toyota has changed the washer spec.
All in all, it looks like a perfectly usable washer, but I'll check it often over the next few days, just to be sure.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Aug 8 2006, 09:26 PM) [snapback]299961[/snapback]</div>

Well, this is interesting. We may have a little mystery on our hands. This evening, I took a Prius-sized Fram ToughGuard filter, and dissected it with my trusty pipe cutter. This was the one with the gray paint job and box. At least in this size, it's almost the same on the inside as the basic Fram. The only "upgraded" features that are naked-eye-observable are that it has a silicone ADBV (vice the cheaper, less effective black nitrile rubber) and it has a screen over the bypass valve. Here's a picture of the scene of the crime. Note the similarities with the standard filter. Premium price for what??? Fram up to its usual. . .

 

ekpolk,
You're confirming what others have discovered about the differences between the Extra and Tough Guard filters, ...NOT MUCH.

Any opinions on the Pure One filter?
One article I saw online about motorcycle filters, had the Pure One rated very high.
I'd go with the Mobil 1 filter, but can't justify the cost. (Unless a great deal "by the case" is available somewhere).
I'll be switching to Mobil 1 synth oil later, and I'll be changing at least every 5k, if not sooner.
If I were to go the longer intervals, then the Mobil 1 filter would be it.
Thanks

 

I got the OEM Toyota oil filer (made by Denso) on eBay, 10 for $35 shipped. So it's $3.5 each. I have not open it up like ekpolk did. But I can't imagine it will be a poor quality filter if Toyota is using this as the OEM filter.

 

MTFC:

Purolators seem to be well respected by those who use them (and think about it...). This is going to be a moving target for a while though. Apparently, Bosch bought out Purolator. I'd heard this a while ago on BITOG, but not paid much attention, until yesterday actually, when while examining filters at an Autozone store, I found that the Prius-size Bosch Premium was no longer a Champion Labs product, but was unmistakeably of what has been Purolator architechure (the look of the O-ring and ADBV, oblong intake holes, spiral seamed centertube, etc.). It may well be that in 6-12 months, Puros are no more, but you can still get the same thing under the Bosch Premium name.

 

Found a cut opened pic of the Toyota 90915-YZZF1 filter from BITOG website. I believe we use the F2 filter which is a shorter version of F1.

Courtesy of kanling from BITOG (http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultima...ic;f=6;t=002995)

Looks like the Toyota filter is a top quality filter. And for $3.5 each, I'll buy it again in a heart beat.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottY @ Aug 24 2006, 03:56 PM) [snapback]309002[/snapback]</div>

I'm not really prepared to agree that it is. On one hand, who am I to disagree with the Toyota engineers, who have obviously shown that, in general, they know what they're doing. On the other hand, Toyota looks to be taking the same dark path that Fram and Nissan too have recently chosen. Filters of this class (the Toyota doesn't even have a cardboard end cap, the tips of the pleats are just glued together, about 1/8 inch deep) seem to be built based upon a statistician's calculation that the failure rate will be "low enough" that the design is acceptable. Add to this the fact that even the most grossly overbuilt filters are just a few dollars more expensive (and some are virtually the same price). An oil system failure is one of the quickest and surest ways to kill and engine dead, totally dead. In the end, we're all free to choose what we feel is best for ourselves. I won't second guess your choice, but I'm staying with, and will continue to advocate, the overbuilt designs.

If you were skydiving, would you choose the cheapest acceptable parachute, or would you want the very best one you could find?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ekpolk @ Aug 24 2006, 05:30 PM) [snapback]309011[/snapback]</div>

hm... interesting... after looking over at your cut open filter pictures, and the previous A1 Toyota filters, looks like they all have some sort of end cap. But the new F1 Toyota filters do not. :blink:

picture of the old A1 filter (courtesy of kanling from BITOG)



Price was the secondary reason that I bought these, the primary reason is that they are OEM filters. If there's a filter failure/warranty issue, I can show that I used OEM parts.

 

I've been wondering what happened to that interesting "origami" filter that Toyota used to make. The dealer parts counter used to have a neat cut away display of it, comparing it to, of all things, a Fram.

I realize that a lot of the choices we all make about such things often have much more to do our own "comfort level," and if staying OEM is important to you, I won't find fault or argue with you about that (hey, it's your car afterall!). OTOH, don't worry about wty issues using a quality aftermarket filter. Under the Moss-Magnuson Warranty Act (the MMWA controls warranties in the US), the manufacturer would have to prove that a failure of the non-OEM filter caused the problem you were claiming under wty before they could sustain a denial in court. That, in turn, would set up an interesting game of strategy in the pre-trial litigation phase. If I were representing an owner and we had the mfr pointing the finger at the filter maker, I'd smoke out all their evidence, and if it had some merit, I'd immediately join the filter maker to the suit as a second defendant (assuming the mfr hadn't done it already themselves). A lot of things could happen from that point, but generally I'd be looking to let the mfr and the filter maker duke it out to determine who gets to pay. Remember that burden of proof thing -- it's key to understanding how wty issues really unfold. And, if the mfr wants to require that you use their consumable product (oil filter, etc) as a condition of the wty, then they must provide the part at no cost. Of course, they can build that into the initial cost of the product. And the FTC is authorized to grant exceptions where the mfr can show that the requirement is based on merits (not just seeking tie in sales). This is how GM is allowed to require the use of Mobil-1 in the Corvette. Bottom line, if you choose any reputable filter brand, and use it within reason, you're not going to have any wty problems.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottY @ Aug 24 2006, 10:35 AM) [snapback]308735[/snapback]</div>

That's a good price. It's nearly half the price of a Toyota parts dept over-the-counter ($6.50/ea, not including sales tax). The lowest price I could find when I ordered mine was $39.90 (shipped) for a case of 10 from a Toyota dealer in Dallas.

The lowest price I see on eBay now is $38 for 10 (shipped) from a Toyota dealer in Connecticut.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ekpolk @ Aug 24 2006, 09:42 PM) [snapback]309127[/snapback]</div>

But with the low price of OEM filters off the internet (albeit in lots of 10), why take the chance of giving an asswipe service tech an excuse to attempt denying a big warranty claim based on a 'cheap' aftermarket oil filter and make your life more miserable after having an oil-related engine failure?

To me, it's worth the extra $1 per oil change to use an OEM filter and avoid that kind of potential hassle (unlikely as it might be).

 

You have a point, w/r/t the hassle factor. But don't worry, in a case like this, I'm 97.5% certain their lawyers would have said asswipe shut down within a couple days. Remember, if they fail to meet their burden of proof, and you win, THEY pay YOUR attorney's fees and costs. That's a huge deterrent to allowing a bogus denial to get too far down range.

EDIT: one more thing -- it would be amusing to see such a case in trial. They claim you used a "cheap" "low quality" filter. You have your engineer (who they will be paying...) cut apart a Mobil-1 like you used and then a Toyota OEM like pictured above. Then pass the parts to the jury to look at and handle. If you hadn't won the case by that point already, you will have after the demo.

 

My first oil change was recently completed on my 2007 at 5,123.0 and I used Mobile 1. Can I go 10,000 miles until my next change with Mobile 1?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Norman H. Renehan @ Aug 8 2006, 11:22 AM) [snapback]299632[/snapback]</div>

I've used both Walmart Super-tech synthetic oil and their filters for years now in both my 1995 Camry and now my 2006 Prius. I've had no problems with them and I've been perfectly happy with both. I'm always looking for the best value and this seems to be it. Steve Dobson

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jeffelectric @ Apr 16 2007, 01:20 PM) [snapback]424097[/snapback]</div>

Jeff, I know this is going to sound petty, but the error is all over the place, and drives my OCD personality nuts. "Mobile" (moe-BEE-uhl), with an "e" on the end is a mid-sized city in coastal Alabama. You can also hang such a device over your kids crib (but different pronunciation). "Mobil", with no "e" on the end is the business entity which produces the very popular brand of synthetic oil. Look closely at the bottle -- it's "Mobil 1".

 

Wow, I think I want to change to the K & N Oil Filters just for that hex cap on top that would let me use a smaller socket to remove the filter.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SteveMD @ Apr 16 2007, 04:36 PM) [snapback]424217[/snapback]</div>

Wal-Mart Super-Tech oil is probably OK, but their filters are absolute crap. The filter assemblies tended not to have even pleats and generally less media than other comparable filters. They also lack a well functioning by-pass valve. With most filters there is an obvious and discrete by-pass valve, but with these filters the can spring and the by-pass valve are the same. The real issue is that in order for the filter to properly by-pass the entire filter assembly would have to move down during use. That is actually not possible with filter assembly properly seating into the anti-drain back valve. This means that the by-pass will effectively never work.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jeffelectric @ Apr 16 2007, 02:20 PM) [snapback]424097[/snapback]</div>

You can do anything you want, but you will be violating Toyota's maintenance requirements. When you choose to do that, you can wind up with warranty problems. It's your choice.

I choose to strictly follow Toyota's maintenance requirements, including being able to prove I'm following them, at least during the warranty period.

Harry

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Earthling @ May 25 2007, 10:29 AM) [snapback]449756[/snapback]</div>

This is a sticky issue to deal with.

The EU market Prius cars, running ACEA spec oils, have a "normal" 12 month or 10,000 mile oil change interval. No reports of blown motors either.

I've run Toyota oil filters and Mobil 1 0W-20 in my Prius up to 16,000 km, and the used oil analysis has come back very good. I did manage to "borrow" a fiber optic machine inspection tool from work, and took a peek through the oil fill under the aluminum valve cover: absolutely spotless

Here, with the "minimum spec" API garbage no-name oil, the Prius has a 6 month or 5,000 mile oil change interval. That is about the shortest interval of any modern car/truck - with the exception of Subaru - and is contradictory to Toyota's flagship "green" product.

By strictly following Toyota recommendations here, you may not be doing your Prius any favors anyway. I had a difficult time tracking down some very unusual used oil analysis numbers on my Prius, which finally turned out to be the crap no-name *contaminated* dealer oil:

http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=14829&hl=

The dealer never did replace the oil tote bin inverted pipe breather with a proper dessiccant filter system. Just from snooping around, I've noticed that other dealers (Toyota, Ford, GM, Honda, etc etc) also use an exterior bulk oil tote bin, with no evidence of a dessiccant breather. I spec and use plenty of dessiccators in my job, so I know what they look like.

Makes you wonder why Toyota got burned by a handful of sludged motors. Or perhaps why Toyota went from a 7,500 mile interval to a 5,000 mile. Rather than insist on using a better motor oil, along with industry-standard bulk lube contamination control methods, they just lowered the interval and passed the cost to the customer.

One thing we can't see, unless done at an actual engine tear-down - though it can be inferred from used oil analysis - is varnish and sludge deposits on the piston crown land, ring land area, and skirt. Once the ring land gets sludged/coked up, the rings will stick and the driver will experience rapidly increased blowby, wear, and ultimately much shorter engine life. Operation in a severely cold winter climate with city stop and go is the worst environment for this: just like Winnipeg happens to experience in winter.

Since a very small number of Prius oil samples are done, I'd be curious to see more samples of a Prius run on dealer bulk oil, especially as the years and miles add up.