What would you pay to use a public charger?

As much as I want to burn less gas, paying the equivalent of $10 a gal makes it a no go for me.

 

The thing that worries me about all this...is that I think the whole electric / plug-in market has no hope of ever going beyond a small group of enthusiasts if you have to pay substantially more for the car AND end up paying more than equivalent price in gas to fill the thing.

I'm in the "refuse to pay more than equivalent cost in gasoline" camp.

 

If you asked me today, I would not want to pay more than I pay for home charging, and would likely try to find a free public charger first

 

I think if the charging comes with other benefits, like better parking, shaded parking, or even guaranteed parking (if I can reserve my charging time, like ChargePoint allows), then I would be willing to pay a small premium. But this is assuming I can't easily find better parking on my own.

If I were to charge just for the sake of charging, then like many others above, I would be much less willing to pay more than what I pay at home. In Southern California, that could be in the neighborhood of ~$1 for a full charge at 120V.

I think the ideas of businesses installing chargers is great, but only as a way to bring in more of the "EV crowd". For example, I rarely go to Walgreens, but I found one near my friend's home while I was showing him my car and we decided to stop by to get something to drink and try out the charging station.

Charging stations as a money making idea just doesnt seem to be worth it. And depending on the crowd (PiP, Volt, Leaf, etc), some people may even get offended a business is "ripping them off" on electricity. If a business wants to recoup their costs on the installation of a charging station, do by earning the EV crowd's business.

 

What did they charge you for using the Walgreens charger? Their press release said $3 per hour but I would be interested to find out what they actually charged you.

Noel

 

It was free otherwise I would've just gone to a 7-11, which was much closer and would've allowed me to preserve more of my EV range. I didnt see the press release, but all the Walgreens ones I found on chargepoint.net looked like they were free.

 

I honestly think the bigger motivator really needs to be drawing people to your businesses. This can also help shopping centers where all the businesses can contribute to the cost of the charger, but they can all reap the benefits of drawing in more customers.

There are 2 chargers near me at IKEA, which I choose to use when i need to not only go to IKEA, but also the Lowes and Costco next door. If the 40 or so businesses in this complex all chipped in equal amounts for the charger, it would likely lead to a pittance apiece to install, but I tell you this, I would be a lot more likely to do my shopping at any of those businesses over the ones down the road.

Parking garages as well if you think about it might be smart to install a chunk of chargers. In my local downtown area if both places charged me $10 to park in their areas, but one had charge stations, of course i'd park in that one. At this point you have to take into consideration that any time you have an open parking spot and someone chooses the lot next door, you're essentially losing money on that open spot. If you have charge stations drawing people in, you can at least capture the EV crowd.

 

On Saturday April 7, I was driving in NYC (Manhattan) and had the need to recharge my PiP at night time while we went to a new down town restaurant, so I decided to park it in an indoor parking lot.
While doing so I requested to have my vehicle near an electrical outlet and I was granted my request; my Prius charger cable went straight to the power source.
After 3 hours of fine dinning and some sightseeing we returned to pick-up the vehicle.
By my surprise, it was a Volt awaiting the connection also.
I had a FREE recharge!!! but ended-up paying 42 bucks for the indoor parking, damn !

 

So, parking garages should install free chargers as a way to draw people who are willing to pay $14/hour to park?

 

It's all a matter of supply and demand. Businesses can charge whatever they like. If they charge too much people won't use the chargers and they'll lower their rates. If the chargers are always full, they'll raise their rates. PHV and REEV drivers don't actually need to charge, so can always drive away if they don't like the rates. An EV driver may need the charge and have to pay whatever is asked, as long as it's less than calling for a tow. All of this goes into a business's calculation when deciding what to charge.

A business might decide to give free charging to bring in plug-in drivers; or might decide that free charging is too costly a perk, as some people will come in to charge and just hang around the business buying nothing.

Some Leaf owners have complained when they needed a charge and a PiP was in the spot. PiP owners like to get better mpg, but the PiP holds very little electricity, and never needs a charge (unless it's out of gas also). A business owner who gets this sort of complaint often might decide it's easier just to remove the charger. Or set a cost for charging high enough to discourage anyone who does not actually need a charge.

From that perspective, $4/hour makes sense. It's small if you find yourself unable to procede and the alternative is a tow truck, but too high for the spot to be taken by people who don't actually need it. You should probably view a $4/hour charger as a statement saying "You can charge your PiP here, we're not discriminating, but we don't really want your business. We put this in for EVs."

I think the real incentive for the installation of chargers will be EVs that really need to buy the electricity at any price.

BTW, Question for PiP drivers: If you see a sign by a charger that says "EV ONLY" do you park there? The PiP is not an EV. It's a PHV. Do you assume the sign doesn't really mean what it says? Or do you feel it's unjust and you are justified in breaking the rule? Or do you park somewhere else and leave the spot for a true EV? I ask this because on another board people have reported frequently seeing PiPs parked and charging where a sign says "EV ONLY."

(Note: I believe the plug-in community should cooperate and share. I ask the question because it has come up and is a point of conflict over a limited resource: chargers.)

 

Thats funny because when I started charging at work, the facilities people put up a sign at the front of parking space where I charge that reads "Electric Vehicle Parking Only".

It seems to be an issue of what "most people" consider to be an EV. Although I understand the differences between the various acronyms and categories that are used, it would seem silly to force their use upon the general public. I'm sure if I were to ask the facilities people at work what an EV is, they would point to my PiP and my co-worker's Leaf. If there was a Volt here, I'm sure they'd identify that as an EV also. Would it have been more appropriate if the sign at the front of the parking space read:

"PHEV or PHV Parking Only"?

or how about

"PHEV, PHV, EV, BEV, or EREV Parking Only"?

I think any owner of a vehicle that can plug-in should be happy that their cars have been accepted by the general public and there are businesses and companies making accommodations for those types of vehicles. Vehicles that they collectively know as "EV"s. To try to further define one make/model over another is just going to be a pain in the nice person for them. It may also prevent others from making similar accommodations if they knew what a crapstorm it was potentially creating.

The matter regarding who should have the right to charge or who shouldn't is a different matter altogether. However, that matter would still exist even if the signage was correct in identifying any and all types of plug-in vehicles.

 

Since the sign probably pre-dates the general availability of plug-in hybrids, I think the question becomes a judgement concerning what the owner of the sign intended. Did they specifically intend to allow only pure EV, or where they thinking more generally of any vehicle that can be plugged in for an electric charge? The distinction between a pure EV and a PHV is likely lost on the average Joe; they see a plug, and, to them, it's an "electric vehicle".

 

You'd really only need two variants:

"PURE ELECTRIC VEHICLE ONLY"

and

"EV AND PLUG-IN HYBRID ONLY"

 

I think installing EVSEs is making it unnecessarily costly. All (PH)EVs already come with a portable charger, so just provide outlets. I suspect for the same cost of wiring one or a few EVSEs, many more outlets could be wired. Then just charge a bit more for parking if it is a parking garage or build it into the price of things at the store/restaurant/etc.

I haven't parked at any EV spots yet, since the opportunity hasn't presented itself yet. IMO, your attitude is biased against PHEVs. Why don't you consider it an EV? Why do you think a rule is being broken when a PHEV parks there?

I think the point of the sign is to prohibit vehicles that cannot charge from parking there. This attitude about a "true EV" seem discriminatory and elitist. My inclination would be to let an EV that needs the charge take the spot, but the idea that "true EVs" have a right over PHEVs displays a distasteful sense of entitlement.

 

I agree with this. The only purpose an EVSE serves is to assure that the cord is not live until it's plugged into the car. And the portable charging cords already have this functionality.

I think you misread my post. I did not say that a rule was being broken. I asked whether:

1. PiP drivers believed the sign included them; OR
2. They felt it did not but felt justified in disregarding it.

You answered my question there.

Please note that I also said all plug-in vehicles should share the charging infrastructure. I have never asserted that true EVs are entitled to preferential treatment.

However, a PiP is not an EV any more than my 2004 Prius is an EV. Both can run on pure electricity for short distances. And the PiP can charge a small battery from the grid and has a slightly longer electric range. But that does not make it an EV. It is, as always labeled, a plug-in hybrid gas-electric vehicle. Since it can plug in, it should be allowed to do so. But it is not an EV.

The Volt is more borderline. It functions as an EV for medium range trips and then becomes a gas-electric hybrid. But neither the PiP nor the Volt will be stranded if unable to plug in, as the Leaf will be. The Leaf clearly has the greater need, and for this reason there are some over at the Tesla forum who feel that "EV ONLY" means that if you have a gas engine, you shouldn't park there.

I and others there have argued strenuously that all plug-in cars should share the chargers. I have argued there, that claiming exclusivity will only create resentment, as I'm seeing in this thread even though all I've said is that a car with an ICE is not an EV.

My purpose in this thread was to ask, as noted above, whether PiP owners felt their car is an EV, or whether they felt it was not but resented the exclusivity of the "EV ONLY" signs. (Or perhaps agreed they should not park where it says "EV ONLY.")

The bottom line is that it's up to the owner of the charger to make the decision what kind of cars he wants to allow on his charger, and that clearly there is disagreement about what's an "EV" so the owners of the chargers need to be more clear in their signage.

 

Back in the days of the EV1 California drivers built up a protocol where they would place a card on their dash that said how long they needed to charge to have enough energy to get home. If the time was exceeded then another driver who needed a charge could then unplug them and use the charger. This worked out quite well among the very small EV community in California at that time.

This was killed, mostly at GM's urging, when the new law was introduced that required vehicles at charging stations to be actually charging so unplugging someones car is a no-no

Now here come some of the issues. If the Leaf/Mitsu I/Focus EV driver needs to charge his car to get home then he is obviously going to be bumbed if there is a PIP using the charger under the circumstances, since they need a charge but the PIP doesn't then they may feel justified in unplugging the PIP - If it were me I would be happy to let them unplug unless that meant I would be towed or ticketed.

But what about when the Leaf is at 80% and the guy only wants to grab some free electrons while shopping at the Mall - why should they have precidence then over a PIP driver that needs the charge so they can drive home using electricity rather than using the ICE?

What about the Volt owner who is just about out of gas and needs to charge a little bit to get them to the nearest gas station, don't they have just as much right to a charge as a Leaf owner who is out of electricity? I know it's a bonehead move to let your car get that low on gas but this stuff happens.

Or the EV driver who parks in the EV parking space and doesn't charge at all - we see this quite a lot since EV parking spaces are usually in Prime locations. Why do they feel entitled to take the space because it says EV Parking Only when there may be an EV driver who desperately needs to charge.

It has always been the case that EV charging stations were so underutilized that they were often blocked by ICE drivers or, sad to say, HEV drivers who felt justified because they had an electric motor in the car. ICEing is still a big problem here in southern california.

The solution of course is to have enough infrastructure so that people who need to charge can, and to educate drivers not to block these spaces when they don't need a charge.

Noel

 

^ Yes. It's a complicated issue. That's why I say we need to cooperate and share, since if all plug-in drivers get together, we'll have a greater voice in calling for more charging stations overall. And charger owners need to be more clear regarding who they want to allow on their charger. "EV ONLY" is no longer clear.

For myself, at least for the time being, I just don't drive beyond my range. When I was driving the Xebra, I never planned more than a 30-mile trip (40 mile range, 10 mile buffer). And although I now have enough range for anything other than a road trip, I will not plan any road trips in my electric car, even though some folks do.

 

Leaf owner,
I think that charging by the hour is the best option.
Get the evse open so the next person can use it.
And help to make sure that it is available.
I would pay $4-$5 hour to charge.

 

Tesla Model S reservation holder. There are plenty of charging stations all over the country. They are called outdoor electrical outlets.

From the source of the link below I'm told the electricity to charge costs 25c per hour. If some nominal fee were tacked on to a restaurant tab or hotel room charge I don't believe I'd mind considering that some hotels charge $1 to make a local call which is free.

EV Charging Everywhere

Like others, if I don't need the charge I'm not going to pay a high rate just as I'd plan to buy gas in VA & SC instead of more expensive NC or people top off in NJ before going to PA. However, if you need gas in NC then you pay the price.

My vote: 115v charging should be free particularly with purchase. Faster charging at maybe double or triple the cost.

 

When you say 115v charging should be free, are you saying that companies should be required to let you plug in for free if they have an outlet accessible? Are you saying that they should be required to install outlets and let us use them for free? Or are you merely saying that you think it makes good business sense to offer them for free?

Or are you saying that the government should install 115v plugs all over and make them free?

In any case, 115v charging is pretty well worthless unless you have 8 hours or so to plug in. The typical 115v circuit offers 15 amps. That's maybe 5 miles of range for an hour's charging, or ten hours to get 50 miles. A golf cart or a PiP, which depletes its battery in an eye blink could refill on 115, and a Leaf can do it if you have all night.

It's great to plug in when I get home and have a full pack I the morning. But for me, 115v charging away from home is worthless unless I'm overnight at a hotel, and I still could not fill from empty over night. Nobody but a PiP or a golf cart is going to see much benefit from 115v while out shopping or eating at a restaurant. And since the PiP does not actually need the charge, most drivers (except the sort of mpg fanatics who join Prius Chat) won't care whether a restaurant or shop or mall has a plug. It won't be worth anybody's while to install 115v plugs.

Now RV-style plugs (240v 50a) are another matter. Now we're talking maybe 30 miles of range for an hour's charging.

And 440v DC chargers would be a real boon, but are extremely expensive to install, and in some cases might require significant upgrades to the service, as wel as the charger itself.