What would be more offensive? To burn the American Flag or to burn the bible?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Oct 21 2006, 10:37 AM) [snapback]336125[/snapback]</div>

If the shoe fits...

Reiterate all you want. If there is something about you I don't know that allows you to tell me I have disrespect for the Marines, let it out. Were you a Marine? A Soldier, Sailor, Airman? A Boy Scout? What? Did you lose somebody close and were a bit oversensitive to a joke about car dealerships you obviously didn't get? I can understand that. Are you a car dealer? Then I'd REALLY understand.

There is an old expression, "By their words shall you know them." If something crucial is missing, tell me. Otherwise don't be so hair-trigger fast to judge another whom you don't have a clue about. Around here our "psychological assessment" of a writer seems to be according to Freud's Duck School of Analysis. You know, if it quacks like a duck....

 

People using the Internet to have discussions, especially political/religious/etc, are particularly quick to jump on any perceived slight. They also have a tendency to be disrespectful of people whom they may disagree with but don't otherwise know. That's one of the characteristics of the 'Net that people love and hate at the same time. It allows you to say what's really on your mind, but then hide behind the anonymity that your broadband connection provides.

For my part, I try to talk to people as I would if I were face to face with them. That still doesn't mean I'm going to give you a helluva lot of respect, but then that's just my personality anyway. I belong to a online motorcycling group (ridersofvision.net) and didn't know anyone there when I joined. Recently, many of us got together and went on a weekend ride in Northern California and I finally got to meet in person many of these guys I've been chatting with for months. Imagine if I had built up a bunch of ill will by being a jerk to some of these people. It might have gotten pretty uncomfortable.

The point is: It seems reasonable to me that you can have a lively, even heated, discussion without being an nice person to one another. After all, you never know who you may end up meeting in person one day.

This isn't aimed at any one person...more like a response to the perception that sometimes people get too personal on the Internet about people they don't actually know.

Vince

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(VinceDee @ Oct 21 2006, 05:58 PM) [snapback]336238[/snapback]</div>

Good advice. I like a good passionate defense of an argument but this often leads to hot words.

Now if your motorcycle group were the Angels, I'd think the meaner you talk, the better. You gotta know your audience.

With respect,
Bob

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(VinceDee @ Oct 21 2006, 05:58 PM) [snapback]336238[/snapback]</div>

That is true. I have called no one names in this exchange, but have been associated with plenty of insults (based on a belief that I belonged to one group or another).

I did ask for clarification of a story presented here, and got not a rational explanation, but a heapin' load of scorn. And I'm supposed to be the judgemental one!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Oct 22 2006, 09:14 PM) [snapback]336629[/snapback]</div>

"I've seen carloads of confused Marines from Pendleton come to a halt, dismount and come to attention before our Ford dealership. It looked to them like the military idea of the rapture was about to begin."

That was my "story." (Implying criticism of car dealerships who fly big flags to get business.)

"Really? Care to give us a time and date?

Your disrespect of the marines is noted. You can return your liberty any time you like."

That was your snotty response.

Which of the two contains personal attack? The first line sounds like something a kid would say. The second is completely out of line.

Why don't you give up, Hagen, Guardian of Liberty? The group you belong to is the Pompous Windbags. Take care who you pass summary judgment on. And work on a sense of humor.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alnilam @ Oct 22 2006, 09:51 PM) [snapback]336640[/snapback]</div>

Everyone can read your response to me, and the names you called me. Now I have to add "pompous windbags" to the list. It is interesting that you quote just the beginning or our "dialog", and not the insults you hurled at me later on. There is little in the ensuing dialog in this thread that you can be proud of, I realize. So perhaps selective quoting is all you have left.

I did have a snotty response to your original message because I thought it was out of line. I thought it was insulting to Marines, as it played on a stereotype of them being ultra-patriotic and stupid. It was "humor" in the Jon Stewart / Steve Colbert mode, which I simply don't find funny when it demeans people. Self depreciating humor is one thing, or humor that points out all of human fraility. But humor that demeans a specific group, racial, political, regional or religious, just isn't funny to me. Its bigotry, and bigotry is ugly.

But I didn't call you names. I didn't say you were part of a larger group that was somehow undesirable. I engaged your words, and your thoughts, without invective. You were not able, or at least unwilling, to do the same. That is your choice.

I just choose a different road than you, that's all.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Oct 23 2006, 09:49 PM) [snapback]337196[/snapback]</div>

Just because you don't have a sense of humor doesn't mean the rest of us don't. If I achieved the level of Stewart and Colbert, I feel truly proud. They are among the most sought after and funny individuals in this country, but you prefer to lump us together as bigots and then complain when I call you a windbag. This is the "fraility" I find in you.

Other servicemen have commented on my words here and saw the humor of it, not the nefarious machinations you imagine. I'll tell you what's ugly: it's the ascribing of evil to things you don't understand and disagree with and the instant judgment that follows.

In case you never noticed, Marines ARE ultra-patriotic. Unlike you, they snap to attention and salute the flag wherever they find it. They, unlike you, put their lives, not flapping lips, on the line to defend what it stands for. I've asked you questions but you never answer so your complaint that I don't know you rings hollow. What experience have you with any of this? I'm betting nothing. You say, "I just choose a different road than you." You bet you did. Dick Cheney had "higher priorities" too. Yet you feel qualified to jump right into something you don't have a clue about. That's the major proposition that's stupid here.

I've been in the military. We called Marines "Jarheads." They called us "Flyboys" and "Junior Birdmen." Army soldiers are referred to as "Grunts." Sailors are "Swabbies." Those of us who served tossed these words about in friendly banter, as rivals often do. Nobody got angry, we just all had another beer and Indian-wrestled. You wouldn't understand this camaraderie. The Marines don't need to be defended by your type. If I'd gone too far, a real Marine would tell me so, not some outsider with a rigid stick firmly inserted.

Me demean a Marine? I live in the middle of thousands of them out here. They are my friends, neighbors and students. They call themselves "the Few and the Proud." I honor them, but I don't worship them. They can take a joke. You know what you can take. Go back to your dark dungeon now.

 

To borrow from an old Murphy Brown episode: Ok, let's settle this once and for all. You guys drop your pants and I'll go get the ruler.

Isn't it about time the two of you stop this little pissing match and just put each other on ignore? Neither of you seem willing to see the others viewpoint, so this is just going to continue to be "yes you did"..."no I didn't"... ad nauseam. Neither one of you is blameless here.

fshagan, you didn't find Alnilam's joke funny. Fine. Everyone has different senses of humor. You initially didn't recognize it as a joke. No problem there, either. In my opinion, though, your response was hostile and combative. Alnilam, your reaction to fshagan's response was just as bad.

I've seen good points from both of you in other threads. This is beneath you both. Give it a rest already. Please.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Oct 24 2006, 08:10 AM) [snapback]337260[/snapback]</div>

But DAAAAAAAAAD (or MOOOOOOOOOOOM)

HE STARTED IT!!!

Thank you Proco for stepping in..

Now you two make nice.
:lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(msnancy61 @ Oct 24 2006, 06:16 AM) [snapback]337262[/snapback]</div>

OK. You're right. What should be going on in private is completely boring in public. I've said, too many times, what I meant. I'll drop it. Sorry for wasting your time. Now lets get back to what we should really be burning. We've already shown you something even more offensive than the flag or bible burning: Internet flaming.

I give the moderators permission to delete all my posts on this thread.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alnilam @ Sep 25 2006, 02:24 PM) [snapback]324810[/snapback]</div>

You might change your views on the importance of gay marriage if the controversy was swirling around you and how you live your life...and if the love and relationships you create and experience are considered -- by others -- to be "equal to" straight love or "different than" (and inherently unequal to) straight love.

Questions like these strike at the very essence of a human being.

Believe it or not, some people actually find it rather offensive that such issues are even being discussed in the first place, let alone when they're dismissed by others (who are probably not impacted by these issues) as "not world class."

Phlueeeeze!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Oct 24 2006, 11:19 AM) [snapback]337440[/snapback]</div>

I am not unaware of the problem. I just moved. Next door to me at the last place two gay guys lived. I got to be pretty good friends with them and they were very pro gay marriage, having been together 16 years. One's a doctor and the other a lawyer, well educated. But they both admitted that the big thing wasn't the marriage certificate, it was the married legal rights that they were after. Just before I moved, the doctor had a mid-life crisis and hooked up with a kid half his age and my other friend had to move out with no legal rights to their home. I think the doctor might have felt a bit of relief he wasn't married. He didn't volunteer to act as if he were. He kept it all. We've got to include gay divorce in the process too.

Society and culture don't move at the speed of light. Forty years ago consensual gay sex was a felony in many states. Twenty years ago it was a big shock as gays "came out of the closet." Nowadays every other TV show has a gay character. I'm in favor of equal legal rights for declared couples. Nothing ever moves as fast as one wishes, but I think things certainly haven't been static.

I don't think a marriage certificate is going to change a single person's consideration of a gay couple any more than it does for those who object to interracial marriage. People hate whom they will, papers or none.

I think marriage is a human institution, it doesn't strike at the essence of being human. Lots of heterosexuals live together without an easily obtained certificate just fine. I'm pretty sympathetic to your view but if you think a nation that elected Bush into office is going to embrace universal gay marriage, I don't think that is too realistic. It took a long bitter struggle to eliminate slavery. This is going to take some time too and your hopes are steadily moving forward.

(BTW, the "world class" comment was a bit out of context. I was referring to Republicans ignoring matters of war, national bankruptcy and any of their hundred other disasters by shifting the debate to the emotional and cultural problems of abortion and gay marriage. No slight was intended.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Jul 17 2006, 01:10 AM) [snapback]287426[/snapback]</div>

You're always asking these inane questions trying to stir people up aren't you? Are you just one of those guys who likes screwing with peoples heads, getting them all cranked up for your own amusement and then laughing at them when they do? There's certainly nothing constructive about your threads like this. What's the point of asking damned-if-you-do-damed-if-you-don't questions that aren't even remotely realistic?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Oct 24 2006, 04:17 PM) [snapback]337666[/snapback]</div>

Well, I for one, don't find this criticism useful at all. Nothing in this thread got me "all cranked up!" You're going to kill this intellectual brain-twist and none of us will find out the right answer! I got the fire pit in the backyard all ready to go for the Mensa weenie roast and now I don't know how to fuel it.

Damn you, JackDodge!

(And, burritos, I better not catch you laughing!) :angry:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alnilam @ Oct 24 2006, 03:55 PM) [snapback]337597[/snapback]</div>

Thank you for the clarification. I think it's the current political climate, most of all, that has me a bit steamed.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alnilam @ Oct 24 2006, 01:14 AM) [snapback]337225[/snapback]</div>

Fair enough. I didn't intend to call you a bigot, and I apologize for the statement that does, indeed, look like I was saying that. I was trying to draw a distinction between cruel humor, which I find far too often is substituted for true wit, and humor that advances our understanding of each other.

But understanding others doesn't seem to be a goal anymore, so I'll leave it at that. Take care.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Oct 24 2006, 08:59 PM) [snapback]337813[/snapback]</div>

End of debate. No harm, no foul. Merçi.

And Proco, put away that ruler!