What services you need and what you don't

Re: What services you need and what you don't

I replaced the serpentine belt on my 2004 at around 70K miles and posted about that experience including photos of the procedure and the old belt.
http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-...45143-service-schedule-serpentine-belt-2.html
See my post #18.

The old belt had lots of fine cracks in it. This is considered acceptable for continued service, since no pieces of the ribs had broken off. However I prefer having a new belt in place, which cost $17 MSRP.

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

I use a high quality synthetic oil, and Amsoil EA filter. I change the oil once a year, or 25,000 miles, whichever comes first. The filter is guaranteed to protect for 25,000 miles in gas engines using synthetic oil.

 

I suppose you're using the Amsoil 0W-30? I know with the dealership oil filter and Mobil 1 0W-20, 10,000 miles the oil analysis came back very good.

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

I've got a 2005 that I've been taking for service to the dealer. 26k miles only now, although I haven't been in since November of last year. Anyway, I asked for oil change & filter and tire rotation.

1st he tried to upsell me an Oil Flush, because "when you change the oil, you don't get ALL the oil out and there's stuff left behind that a flush will get out." I declined, mostly because it sounded stupid to me.

Almost all done, and he comes in and then tells me the technician says I need a new air filter, and I should have the fuel injection system flushed. "how much and how much time? What is that?" $125, 30 minutes, and "they hang a bag with some cleaning fluids in it (like an IV bag) and let that go into the fuel injection system, and then we run the car to flush it all out and through." The way he said it reminded me of my childhood, when gramps would say stuff like "take the car out on the highway, open 'er up, and burn the carbon off the plugs"!

I took the overpriced air filter, ($25) because I didn't feel like screwing with it, but declined the fuel injection cleaning as well.

This is the first time I've gotten this kind of upsell pressure from the service department, and I'm glad I brought my laptop with me so I could check it out while I'm waiting for them to finish. I bought the car here, but maybe now that it's out of warranty, it's time to find a regular service station to get the routine maintenance stuff done?

 

I'd find another dealer for service

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

Technically, he was not lying about the oil incompletely draining, but all cars are the same when it comes to that. If it was such a bad thing a flush would be part of every oil change in the world. It isn't, so ignore that one.

The injector flush was a good thing to pass up. With the fuel system on a 2005 you do not have to worry about injectors, particularly using domestic gasoline; it's all detergent loaded.

You might try Walmart for your air filters; that's where many folk get theirs. If you don't want to ever buy another get the K&N permanent air filter; change only every decade or so? It's a permanent air filter over which much band width has been expended bashing it in this chat room. I love mine. It costs a little over twice what you just paid for a paper filter. Their web address:
[http://www.knfilters.com/]

 

Extreme Driving Service??

When should someone consider doing the "extreme driving service? What is the ball park cost for the factory required 30k service?
I just got zapped with a $600 bill for a 30k service at a Colorado Toyota Dealer. I found out after the fact that I was getting the "extreme driving" service vs. the standard. Also got the inverter flush which I thought was required and apparently is not. I come to learn that my dealer has 3 versions of their 30k service which of course they gave me the most expensive one w/o telling me about the others.

 

Time to find another dealer

 

Re: Extreme Driving Service??

The local Toyota dealer in Sheridan, Wyoming, charges around $200. for the 30K Prius service. You might consider contacting the Better Business Bureau with the fraud they have inflicted on you. Ask the dealer for your money back; everything over the fee they charge for their "normal" 30K Prius service. Tell them you will contact the BBB . To be honest, contact the BBB whether they refund the overcharges or not; any refund only slightly mitigates their bad behaviour.

 

*sigh* Everything that the car needs is shown in the Scheduled Maintenance Guide. Open the Guide to the correct page; show that to the service writer; tell them, "do that and nothing else". Normal maintenance on a Prius at 30K should cost you less than $100. You can save more by changing the engine and cabin air filters yourself, they're very easy.

If you stroll, waltz, or sashay in and say, "gimme yer X miles service", you are asking to get reamed. All dealers define their own bloated service packages and will charge you for that regardless of what the car needs.

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

In the past year and a half I have put about 40K miles on my Prius. Much of that is on the super slab but much also running very rocky, dusty roads in the local mountains. None of the fluids, other than crankcase oil, has any discolouration whatsoever!

There really is no need for "extreme driving service" for a Prius. The normal sealing contained in the Prius design is usually fully effective. The reservoirs included above the engine for lubricants, coolants, brake fluid, etc., are all clear walled and show directly the condition of those fluids. Pulling the crankcase dipstick will reveal the condition of the oil.

There is no need for any such thing as "extreme driving service" for a Prius. There may even be no need for fluids changes until well after the 100K mark. My guess ; the words are a sales slogan for the testosterone impaired.

 

Well, how about someone who uses the Prius to deliver US mail on a rural route in the winter with snow on the ground. Constant stop & go, driving an average speed of 10 mph or less. That might qualify as "extreme" service and would imply more frequent oil and filter changes as well as frequent brake and suspension checks.

 

Re: Extreme Driving Service??

What a rip off, you could approach the agency manager and say that when you compared what you got to what is recommended in the Toyota Service booklet you were shocked to see that all those things they did to your car were not recommended and you would appreciate a refund of the extra money you paid, as you had reasonably thought that when you were requesting a service, they would provide the Toyota recommended service.

I take it the service advisor didn't tell you in advance what they were giving you and what it would cost? That was really outrageous and i agree, report to BBB, they must do this to people all the time, forget about extreme driving, they are extreme predators.

I took my car for its 30K service several months ago, bringing the Toyota service booklet with me, along with records of work that had already been done (i had just bought the car used at 28K in January). At first i was 'offered' a service that cost $300. i had already consulted these forums so that definitely didn't sound right to me. After showing the guy the Toyota service recommendations along with what had been done at the time of the inspection i got when buying the car, he agreed that i didn't need all that other stuff. My bill was $39. (all that had been done at the pre-purchase service were inspections).

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

If it were a Corolla that would qualify as extreme service. The Prius thrives under such conditions. That's because the ICE does not suffer from stop and go driving; that's it's normal operating condition even at high speed cruise. Using a Prius on such a job would require the same kinds of personal driving adjustments any Prius driver learns; use of EV mode, cruise to slow using dynamic braking, use of B mode if more rapid stops are required, etc.

Needless to say, using John1710's grill blocking would raise the mileage considerably in the winter conditions you describe. For all practical purposes there would be very little "stress" on a Prius by delivering the mail in the winter.

Think of Hobbit's suggestion that leaving the car on while doing small errands saves the systems from continual restart cycles. Delivering the mail is about the same as short run errands.

No Big Deal! In fact, a Prius would shine under such conditions.

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

The discussion was about some specific "extreme service" things that, no matter how hard you drive a Prius, are not at all necessary at a 30K service. Right, to deliver the mail you would need special attention to the brake pads, but selective driving keeps that down to a minimum, and dynamic braking has never been a feature on any prior passenger vehicle used to deliver the mail.

The ICE most certainly starts and stops continually during normal operation. Keeping the water temperature high causes higher efficiencies all around, even in the summer. It would most certainly eliminate "condensation" in the crankcase no matter how many times the Prius "starts and stops." The computer runs the engine well above idle any time needed to maintain high engine temperature, moving or stopped.

Name me a system that would need "severe service" maintenance. In fact, there are few "severe service" maintenance directions anywhere in Toyota manuals for a Prius. There is the direction to shorten maintenance periods under extremely dusty conditions, and frequently check the brake linings under exceptional use, but otherwise... a 5K oil change regimen and no early flushes, unchanged by anything except obvious contamination. Winters usually ain't dusty, just cold and wet.

This ain't a converted Willys, or like anything else in prior passenger car experience.

Of course, it hasn't been used to deliver mail, so the point is imaginary. Or does Dr. Wong know more than he is letting on?

 

Hi Rusty,

I know of at least two owners who use their Prius to deliver rural mail. One owner actually drives the car while sitting in the front passenger seat after removing the center console and installing a hand-operated parking brake (which seems pretty amazing to me.) I do recall one owner reporting mpg in the high 20s to low 30s, which will give you an idea of the load being carried and the adverse conditions faced by the car, including reduced availability of regen braking.

If you are driving around at 10 mph in the cold winter, say temps are below zero F, then the engine never has a chance to warm up to the extent that it would if you were cruising along at 70 mph with ambient temp of 70 degrees F, driving 500 miles on a fun road trip from San Diego to San Francisco. Yes, upon startup the engine will run at 1,000 rpm for a while to warm up, then it will shut down once it thinks the catalytic converter is hot enough. However the engine oil will still be cold, put your hand on the bottom of the crankcase to see for yourself.

If the engine oil temp doesn't get above the boiling point of water, then water condensation will build up in the crankcase. If you're interested in long engine life then you'll probably want to change the oil more frequently than 5K mile intervals, while the PCV valve might also get clogged faster than normal.

If you're routinely carrying ~500 lb of mail daily over bumpy rural roads, driving at slow speeds, then it would be reasonable to expect that the suspension and friction brakes will wear much more than under normal driving.

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

Initial start is not the only time the ICE runs to warm the coolant. Any time the coolant temperature gets below 182F the ICE starts and warms the coolant to at least 188F before turning off again. That keeps oil temperatures well above 220F and that all happens even without blocking the grill as John1710 or Hobbit describe.

The ICE also runs to charge the main battery while stopped when the car is in P or D or B. The battery charges to at least three bars and then the ICE shuts down again. When the charge again gets to one bar the ICE restarts to charge the main battery.

For all practical purposes, the driver has zero control over when the ICE runs; it's all computer controlled by feedback from condition sensors throughout the system, including the throttle pedal sensor. Try getting the "motor" to rev! A low temperature will cause the ICE to start and run until the temperatures again run high enough to satisfy the computer program for the Prius.

By the way, I don't know of any RFD routes with more than 50 people on them, even in California. Where would 500 pounds of mail come from? Where would the time come for delivery of all those pieces of mail to all those clients in less than four hours? Even at an average two ounces per piece, 500 pounds of mail is well over 3,900 pieces of mail! Even as little as 60 pounds of mail would mean delivering four pieces of mail per minute during a four hour delivery time. Urban mail carriers are hard pressed to get near that rate, even in high rise apartment blocks.

Not in this world!

 

Hi Rusty,

I'd say the Prius engine is very slow to warm up in the winter. I question that the engine oil temp will get above 212 degrees F if the engine is mostly off or idling, while ambient temps are at or below 0 degrees F.

I'd encourage you to make the Prius READY from a cold start, leave the car in the driveway in P, and see what happens. The car will idle for several seconds, then the engine will turn off. Do you think the engine coolant is now at 182 to 188 degrees F?

A simple way to check is to put your hand on the radiator hose leading to the engine thermostat housing. Or, turn on the cabin heater and see if hot air is coming out. You'll likely find the air is not heated. Why do we see so many posts in the winter complaining about lack of cabin heat (even when the heater core is supplemented by two electric heaters)?

Then, leaving the cabin heater turned off, with the car parked in your driveway in READY and P, see how long it takes until the engine thermostat opens and the radiator hose becomes hot. The thermostat is rated to open at 82 degrees C or 180 degrees F. I think you'll be waiting a long time and will notice the engine is off much of the time. Now imagine how much longer it will take if you try this exercise in the dead of winter when the ambient temp is much lower and cooling things off faster.

Regarding RFD routes, although this is getting off subject, here's a website where one contributor says he services 800 boxes while another says he has a small route, only 580 boxes. The topic is whether the mail carriers should support the Census project, and the amount of incremental workload this would add.
Rural Carrier Discussions - QuickTopic free message board hosting
See posts 38355 and 38358.

My household routinely receives 1-2 lb of mail a day, with newsprint advertising from local businesses, catalogs (many of which are from companies that I have no business relationship with) and bills from my creditors. So 500 lb of mail doesn't seem unreasonable and might significantly understate the actual load carried by a rural carrier, especially if local newspapers are delivered via US mail and considering the likelihood that a rural household might mailorder more items such as prescriptions, etc if their local drugstore is not 2 miles away.

I understand that a full-time rural carrier earns around $40-50K or more annually, so I really hope each carrier services substantially more than 50 households. Attached is the salary schedule for Florida rural mail carriers.
http://www.flrlca.org/PDF/A25-2008.pdf

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

By design, the Prius does not run cool. The computer keeps the coolant temperatures above 172F at all times when the car is moving. Blocking the grill keeps the temperature as high as you wish. Over 192F is a temperature worth maintaining all year; it lowers your fuel bill.

Here in Buffalo, Wyoming, from a 20F start it takes about nine or ten minutes running to get my Prius coolant to a temperature above 180F. With grill blocking I run usually from 192F to 204F; the radiator fans start at 202F or thereabouts to keep things cool enough to satisfy the computer. I have yet to suffer any cool air even when the heater is using outside air to maintain clear glass.

Possibly the weather is exceptionally cool where Patrick lives. If so, he should visit John1710's site and follow the directions for maintaining high coolant temperatures.