What are your thoughts on the Gen. 4 Prius?

Well I keep going back to what is missing:

• Level 2 ECO + TSS-P - I've got loan approval from the bank but no product

Also left on the table:

• 1.5kW inverter but I've done two, 2003 and 2010, based on the 12V system
• tow kit but I've already done two, 2003 and 2010

So this is the world the Wilson family lives in:

	metric	2003 Prius	i3-Rex	2016 Level 2 ECO	2010 Prius
1	EPA city/comb/hwy	42/41/41	117/57/39	58/56/53	51/50/48
2	pass/lugg/tot ft{3}	89/12/101	84/15/99	91/27/118	94/22/116
3	miles	170000	14000	10	70000
4	cost	$maint	$25-$30k	$26-28k	$maint
5	HP/dr	94 hp/front	168 hp/rear	121 hp/front	118 hp/front
6	access barrier	B pillar	open	B pillar	B pillar
7	wheel base inch	100"	101"	106"	106"
8	120VAC ($)	1 kW ($100)	tbd	tbd	1 kW ($300)
9	tow kit	$250	tbd	tbd	$350
10	autobraking	No	No	No	No

• i3-Rex - seeing more used available, buyer's market, $25-30K on eBay; new model announced
• Level2 ECO - brain-dead mistake to omit TSS-P; lack of towing and 120VAC, money on table

I have bank note for $25k@60 months because I can afford the $500/mo. payments (and can liquidate it easily.) I can easily toss in a couple more $K without batting an eye. But as long as the money is in my pocket, I'd better see what I want and a little interest in my business (i.e., something off the cost.) Time is on my side.

FYI, vehicles not meeting my requirements:

• used Volt - 149 hp; wheelbase 105"; access 1+4
• used Sonata - 199 hp; wheelbase 110"; access 1+4

I've got a year until the Level 2 ECO with TSS-P is available. In the meanwhile, I don't have to snatch the first i3-Rex that comes along either. Time is on my side and the money in my pocket.

Bob Wilson

 

BMW i3 is really a 1+4 but with the rear doors being suicide doors in a pillarless configuration (requiring the front to be opened first), for what it's worth.

 

Since the rear doors don't operate without the front, I thought 1+2 made sense. It is in effect a two-door car with split doors. Still, it is the "B" pillar I don't want and I've updated the table.

Of course with my luck, a cherry BMW i3-Rex will come available when the Level 2 ECO with TSS-P shows up in inventory with 1.5 kW inverter and tow option.

Bob Wilson

 

isn't the i3 smaller than prius?

 

i think too much time has gone by now. mfg.'s have resigned themselves to bev's and phev's. the hybrid bridge has been crossed, and while toyota will continue to make good money on prius, r&d for everyone else is to costly at this point. ford is only in it because of trade offs with toyota, and they got the old tech.

secondly, everyone is making money hand over fist on large vehicles, it must be hard to keep your eye on fuel efficiency.

 

This is why I see the FCA Pacific Plugin Hybrid a winner. Think about it for a moment.

Those who have an abundance of Solar (or don't mind spending on electricity) will save a ton using a huge vehicle at 30 miles EV (16 KWh battery). Volt 1 had that and I think was able to go 45 miles EV or so, but is like a vehicle have the size.

FCA made a smart choice doing a plugin. Because now you may be not using a drop of gas within 30 miles while a regular van would yield about 1.5 gallons already (20 mpg assumption). Toyota should have already put some money on the table for a Plugin Highlander but again, they are less than plugin neutral.

So simple math? Let's be a little pessimistic and say 20 cents a gallon for 14 KWh usable = $2.8

Now let's say that's equal to 1.5 gallons for 30 miles @ $2.40/gal = $3.6 - a difference of $0.80 cents per mile.

10,000 miles a year = $266.67 savings a year for those 30 miles. Now if it's straight Solar or free plugin stations (the point is "free") that's a savings of $1,200 a year or more if gas goes up.

Think about who's driving those vans...contractors possibly, but families with trips around town for soccer games, school, etc...now you have a winner if it's the right price (especially with incentives).

FCA just needs to get passed their own namesake (not Toyota or Honda reliable). I thought the Outlander Plugin would be a game changer. Again a Highlander Plugin would've been...But pay attention to the Pacifica - I can't imagine it more than $40k base, with full $7,500 fed tax refund.

A couple figures I think Hybrids and PHVs should take into account and be standard:

• What's the ICE engine efficiency?
• What's the Regen Breaking efficiency? This I really want to know. Will the Pacifica actually be more efficient because it's heavier to stop, so in the end it yields similar to a Prius?

If the Pacifica gets better efficiency than the Highlander Hybrid 2017 then Toyota's Hybrid crown would wane further....

Also - take note of Hondah's 2017 Odyssey, supposedly there might be a hybrid version...Sienna 2017 also is supposed to be more efficient, but no idea of a Hybrid in sight.

You can tell I'm in the market for a bigger vehicle Maybe that's why the 2016 Prius was a turn-off, the backseat felt smaller!

 

no doubt plug ins will keep gaining popularity. i'm not sure if you save anything with solar. after all, you're already saving, so transferring to vehicle vs house or payback is just a trade off, no?
as for chrysler and fiat, i have owned many, including a current dakota, and i would want a good 5 year history before investing. i don't relish spending my days running back and forth to the dealer.
you're right though, the idea is terrific. i just hope they can fit the batteries somewhere, there's not much space to give up in the 7 seater.
just saw an ad for the gas version, nice looking van, not like the old pacifica, which was attractive as well.

 

Not a big fan of plug-ins here. I'd much rather have an EV plus a hybrid (or rent) for longer trips. It seems to me that with a plugin you carry around the unused weight of the gas engine, gasoline, etc for the first portion of the trip and then lug along a heavy battery which is isn't doing much for you once it is exhausted. If the gas engine system were deleted, the same battery would probably give longer range (and there would be room for a larger battery). Without the battery, the gas system's MPG would probably improve.

A hybrid uses its battery totally differently from a plugin, feeding energy into and out of it to improve efficiency.

If I had a place to charge one, a Leaf, i3, or e-Golf would suit my local needs perfectly. I would use the Prius for longer excursions and for hauling boats, etc.

 

understood. but the pip is pretty efficient. at 124 pounds heavier than the lift back, it delivers better mpg's after wall charge runs out, due to larger li-on pack.

 

And I wonder if there's a fine-line on how much the gas engine should charge the battery and what not. IE, would a gas engine charging the battery be more efficient than gas propelling the car?

Also, the added weight can be partially recharged by regen. Plus, it's the ever evolving infrastructure of plugin stations which is backed by Tesla, unlike the Hydrogen infrastructure.

And what's the common denominator all around? Electricity...more so than gas...

 

The Pacifica Hybrid stores its battery in the well normally used for stow-and-go second-row seats (so it doesn't have stow-and-go second-row, only third-row).

The efficiency hit on many PHEVs from hauling the gas engine around usually isn't that bad, maybe 1 or 2 kWh per 100 mi, and the Prius Prime will have EV mode efficiency on par with the best BEVs (120+ MPGe, when the only thing better is the i3 BEV).

And, powering the wheels is always the most efficient use of gasoline energy, but if you need less power than the minimum efficient point for the gasoline engine, it starts to make sense to route excess into the battery (only if dropping to the actual required load would result in more efficiency loss than the motor, inverter, and battery losses), and cycle the engine.

 

Just make sure you buy into an extended warranty if buying an FCA made vehicle. I owned a Dodge when they were Daimler, and own a RAM 2015 model from new.

Let's just say they dobt instill confidence in my. Won't bore with my take on the matter, but one thing I do know is that Japanese although not trouble free, they do address issues going forward, with revised and improved parts. With FCA they just keep throwing replacements at you until your warranty runs out. It's a numbers game for for them.

LG-H901 ?

 

So today, this is the world the Wilson family lives in:

	metric	2003 Prius	i3-Rex	2016 Level 2 ECO	2010 Prius
1	EPA city/comb/hwy	42/41/41	117/57/39	58/56/53	51/50/48
2	pass/lugg/tot ft{3}	89/12/101	84/15/99	91/27/118	94/22/116
3	miles	170000	14000	10	70000
4	cost	$maint	$27.6k	$26-28k	$maint
5	HP/dr	94 hp/front	168 hp/rear	121 hp/front	118 hp/front
6	access barrier	B pillar	open	B pillar	B pillar
7	wheel base inch	100"	101"	106"	106"
8	120VAC ($)	1 kW ($100)	tbd	tbd	1 kW ($300)
9	tow kit	$250	tbd	tbd	$350
10	autobraking	No	No	No	No

I took a Level 3 with TSSP to one of my regular loops and did 5 miles on cruise control. Sure enough, the result was 'average' MPG, 99.1 MPG. The Level 3 does not share performance characteristics with the Level 2 ECO. It has TSSP but that is not enough as it also lacks a tow package and/or 1.5kW inverter option.

Today, I found a fair price for a used BMW i3-Rex. It has an EPA rated 117 MPGe, easily besting the Gen-4, even the Level 2 ECO. I'll still have to add the inverter and tow bar but I would with any of the USA Gen-4s. So my wife and I will take a vacation in a week to pick-up the i3-Rex and drive it back via the Gulf Coast.

Bob Wilson

 

wow, that was fast! prime will be 120 mpge. good luck with ze cherman engineering!

 

[QUOTE="bwilson4web, ...

Today, I found a fair price for a used BMW i3-Rex. It has an EPA rated 117 MPGe, easily besting the Gen-4, even the Level 2 ECO. I'll still have to add the inverter and tow bar but I would with any of the USA Gen-4s. So my wife and I will take a vacation in a week to pick-up the i3-Rex and drive it back via the Gulf Coast.

Bob Wilson[/QUOTE]
Wow - that's a great price - there are only 13 for sale in Australia, the cheapest $AU62½k with 13000km (new about $AU74,000.)

 

One thing for sure, Murphy's law says I'll see a lower price for a lower mileage one within a month or so. Actually:

• $24.7k - March 6, 2016
• $25.6k - April 18, 2016

I may have left ~$1.5-2.0k on the table but Good, Fast, Cheap … pick two.

This particular car was on auction and I could have probably picked it up on Monday, cheaper. Still, when I called about the title, the dealer was willing to negotiate and take $1.5k off the asking price. But I think everyone in this deal is happy … enough.

BTW, I've still got fond memories of a 1966 VW MicroBus that was the first car I bought. The BMW has a fairly good reputation and I'll risk it. After all, only the BMW diesel passed both USA and Euro 6 emissions.

Bob Wilson

ps. Never forget, I'm the guy who also spent four years in the Marine Corps … I don't always make good decisions … just often good enough.

 

I'd love a BMW i3 - but not at the prices here. Is yours the one with the 2 cyl engine too, or just plug-in?

Those '60s Microbuses - if still in existence, and in good order, are worth a fortune now, I think I saw one sold for about $¼ mill recently.

I had 2 VW Microbuses - a '74 Manual, and a '78 Auto with A/C!!! Quite rare with a/c - the huge condensor sat underneath with 4 electric fans, and it had a large fibreglass "T" shaped vent arrangement attached to the ceiling, blowing backwards and toward the front occupants. Great cars - the Auto/Air really slurped petrol (gasoline) though (16 US MPG)!!!

 

Range extender. I have to drive it back, 800 miles.

Those '60s Microbuses - if still in existence, and in good order, are worth a fortune now, I think I saw one sold for about $¼ mill recently.

I had 2 VW Microbuses - a '74 Manual, and a '78 Auto with A/C!!! Quite rare with a/c - the huge condensor sat underneath with 4 electric fans, and it had a large fibreglass "T" shaped vent arrangement attached to the ceiling, blowing backwards and toward the front occupants. Great cars - the Auto/Air really slurped petrol (gasoline) though (16 US MPG)!!!​

I used a 'blue book', school composition booklet, to record mileage. If 28 MPG, no problem. But if it went lower, I knew it was time to:

• adjust the valve back lash
• clean the sparkplugs (days of leaded gas)
• change the oil
• check tire pressure

Bob Wilson

 

Regarding your i3, you might want to recode it before starting your drive, to enable hold mode or at least cause the REx to start at a higher SOC (to improve highway performance), and enlarge the fuel capacity...

All about the BMW i3 (REx) - Facts / Coding Tutorial has the instructions on how to do it.

 

Also, I found an OBD reader that knows the i3. So we should be good to go.

Bob Wilson