What are your thoughts on the Gen. 4 Prius?

Ha ha ha - thanks bisco -not quite, I'm a salesman! English was my best subject (under a different sun, I'm nearly 40). Spent a long time practicing as a wordsmith finding new ways to express my disappointment at Hyundai in various forums, or chatting on Fuelly about diesel and Scanguages. Won't be needing my Scangauge E in the Prius (stock eco gauges so much better, plus I'm not cluttering the beautiful dash). Speaking of sales, I need to be cracking on, got a lot of postcards to write to a lot of schools....

 

I think that's a somewhat dated perspective. It was certainly true in the days of the "faux Jaguar" Sonatas and Optimas from a decade ago, but by the time of the "fluidic sculpture" '09 Sonata, I'd say Hyundai/Kia was a styling leader, as much influencer as influenced - what exactly is today's Kia Optima a "copycat" of? Toyota in particular seems to have been shaken out of its bland slumber by Hyundai's more radical exterior treatments, the competition moving it to more "exciting" sheet-metal.

On the HEV technology front, they've patiently beavered away at their P2 drivetrains until the latest Sonata hybrids are actually pretty impressive. I'll be taking a close look at the Ioniq and Niro when they show up - unlike the late unlamented Honda Insight's lame IMA system, the Ioniq's new generation P2 drivetrain, especially matched with the Niro's high-utility compact crossover form factor, may actually provide the value-oriented Prius alternative that Ford didn't quite deliver with the C-MAX.

Steering back to the thread's intent, the arrival of these new Koreans will likely put even greater pressure on Gen4 Prius pricing. Looking past this summer, if gas prices remain low and Hyundia/Kia deliver the goods, the Prius is just not going to be able to command the sort of premium Toyota would prefer. The somewhat lower cost but significantly lower value Prius c is particularly in the crosshairs - if the Ioniq and Niro come in somewhere around Prius c pricing (as seems likely given the lower cost of a P2 drivetrain), the c is probably going to be coming with some rebates next year, and will need to see major improvements if it's to avoid going the way of the Matrix.

 

i have never seen a hyundai i was attracted to, but that's just personal taste.
why would you say it was hyundai that shook prius styling up?

btw, in case you missed it, in an auto review, the ionique refused to go up a hill.

you have a lot of 'ifs' in there, but i agree that competition is good for the consumer.

 

Understood - which is why I pointed out the biggest threat is to the Prius c. If Hyundai/Kia deliver more car for less money (their long-running formula) with a hybrid system that delivers high real-world MPG, even if not quite as high as the c, the rationale for the c gets pretty thin. If the Prius LB is too rich for your blood, a trip down to the H/K dealer might be more satisfying than a walk across the lot to partake of Toyota's "hybrid for the rabble." [Have I mentioned I really don't like that car? ]

 

The proof is in the pudding! 60.81 MPG (imp.) for my first tank beat my heartily disliked Hyundai i20s first tank of 60.74 MPG (imp.).
The Hyundai was a 1.1 3 cyl diesel, with a fake 94 MPG (imp.) claimed - tricked me into buying it and left me with a miserable 2 and a half years, 40,000 miles of ownership. I managed 64.1 MPG (imp.) over that tedious time. Unimpressed with Hyundai cars, Hyundai dealers. True the Prius is twice as much - and feels like it! The Hyundai never felt worth the £13,000 it cost.

 

a lot of priuschat members love their c's.

 

The first floating roof I can recall is the 1986 Mercury Sable.

I liked my '13 c very much. There are some things I miss about it. A few things on it are superior to my Two Eco.
That said, so far the Two Eco is getting nearly five MPG's better than the c, and I have not even gotten into the high mileage warm weather yet (winter lingers into May at 9000 ft elevation). That is remarkable considering the Two Eco's 500 extra pounds, the far cushier and far quieter ride. The roads where I live are just junk, and the extra firm suspension on the c was hard to take. I don't regret trading it in.

 

Golfs had torsion beams from the equivalent of model year 1975 through 2003 in Europe, model year 1975 through 2005 (2006 GTI had IRS)-2006.0 (2006.5 Rabbit replaced the 2006 Golf) in the US. Torsion beams reappeared for the equivalent of model year 2014 in Europe on low-trim cars, and for model year 2015 on TDIs in the US as part of their cost reduction strategies.

Volkswagen did a LOT of work with fancy bushings to get the torsion beam to handle better, and it worked pretty decently (I mean, I've got a 99.5 Golf TDI, most of my issues with its handling are related to the slow as molasses steering rack ratio). Problem is, Ford brought out the Focus with an excellent independent rear suspension (in the equivalent of model year 1999 in Europe), and Volkswagen was forced to catch up (as the Focus became one of its biggest competitors). (Ford's also got decent torsion beams, in the Fiesta, though. I have other problems with how the Fiesta drives (namely, no driver feedback), but the actual handling is quite competent.) For the Prius c's class, torsion beams are considered completely acceptable, and they improve packaging (which is actually why US-market 2015 Golf TDIs got them - it helped with packaging the urea tank) and reduce weight, so I don't see any reason for Toyota to go away from them on a Prius c.

Ultimately, though, $19.6k for a base Prius c (OK, nobody's paying that), or $25.5k for a Four with 16-inch wheels and TSS-C (also, nobody's paying that) is way, way too high for a car that, as you say, is best compared to the Mirage (at like $13-16k). (Or, for that matter, the Yaris, except for the Yaris's awful MPG - and that's reflected in the Yaris's sales being less than half the Prius c's in March. The Mirage, OTOH, sold significantly more than the Prius c.)

Another strategy that might work for Toyota (although risky) is to make a decontented One trim of the Liftback with a torsion beam (bringing this back to the Gen 4), to reduce costs and make it more accessible to buyers that would have bought a Prius c. The problem is that it risks tarnishing the Liftback's new, sportier image.

 

makes no sense though, the size is too different. people want a cheap lift back. you can't go up market with such a small percentage of vehicles.
that is, if you're really interested in capturing more of the market.

 

The other possibility I've thought of is that they could go for converting a locally produced model, much like their European strategy, where instead of the Prius c, they produce the (somewhat smaller, but otherwise very closely related) Yaris Hybrid in France, and while the Liftback is available, the (somewhat smaller, but otherwise very closely related to the Gen 3 Liftback) Auris (Scion/Corolla iM for the US market) Hybrid produced in the UK sells better. That would also be dependent on whether a TNGA Yaris is produced in North America, of course.

As far as pushing the Gen 4 Liftback upmarket in general, while I'm considering one due to the massively improved driving dynamics, I'm not sure I see that as a winning strategy - go too far upmarket, and you're competing against BEVs for the green dollar... although are they really pushing it upmarket, or just into a different market? MSRPs after accounting for inflation, except for the base Prius I, for the 2010 model are fairly similar to or higher than (and extend higher than) the roughly equivalent 2016s.

 

I wonder if the CT actually could be safely displaced, however, at least in the US.

The luxury market tends to not be a fan of hatchbacks unless they're lifted into small crossovers, although liftbacks work (Model S, Audi A7, Panamera). Could something closer in concept to an HS 250h (but with sportier chassis tuning) work better here? Or, possibly, the IS 300h? I'd predict 39 city, 36 highway out of such a car, though (comparing US vs. UK ratings for 17" wheel CTs, and the 17" wheel UK market IS 300h (base CTs in the UK having 15" wheels, base IS 300hes in the UK having 16" wheels)), which doesn't sound that impressive, though, but then the 43/40 from the CT 200h isn't that impressive either.

The other thing I could see is maintaining the Liftback's shape in a second-gen CT to improve (or maintain, possibly) the highway mileage, but upgrading to a larger-engined version of the Gen 4 Prius drivetrain (think revised 2AR-FXE like in the Camry and RAV4, instead of 2ZR-FXE). This would improve performance in a straight line significantly, although with an obvious hit to fuel economy - I would predict something on the order of 45-48 MPG city, 40-45 highway out of this, guessing based on the current Camry hybrid and a few other extrapolations, so in a similar range to the current CT on the highway, and better city.

 

what are you currently driving?

 

2000 Miata (not the one in my avatar, that was my old 1992) and I've got a 99.5 Golf TDI that I'm planning on selling soon. My target is to get a replacement for the Golf by winter, and a Gen 4 Prius is the frontrunner.

 

i had a '91 miata for 12 years, put 27,000 miles on it. i still miss it sometimes.

 

So you're thinking the CT's successor could be a Yaris-sized (to slide in below the NX) crossover - basically a tall Prius c with the full-size Prius powertrain and e-Four? (Problem with GLA and X1 comparisons is that the NX is already the competitor in that size class.)

Could work, I've seen plenty of Buick Encores around (which is a Chevy Sonic-based crossover, and would likely be its closest competitor), and they're 5 mm longer wheelbase than the Prius c.