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???"few seconds to fill up"??? I'm not ESL here...

Put gas nozzle into filler tube, squeeze and activate holder. Walk in to get a snack. PLEASE!....

moto g(7) power ?

 

From what you have posted here, you believe that if a BEV results in some natural gas power generation, it isn't green, and that you might as well continue burning gasoline. Despite the fact that even with that extra natural gas burning for the BEV, it is still cleaner than your current ICE car. You are letting the perfect be the enemy of the better.

Your state leadership has the same narrow view, and that view is part of the reason of why there are rolling black outs now. Old nuclear and fossil plants were taken offline, and grid level battery back up or other storage wasn't an option yet. Despite that, California didn't allow the building of new natural gas plants, because they saw any fossil fuel use in state as bad. They'd rather buy hydro or wind from somewhere else, even if those places then have to go buy coal from Wisconsin. It is the same logic and actions that has Japan seeing hydrogen as clean.

Renewables plus grid level storage are still new. Wind power getting cheap is very recent in terms these projects time scales. A power source is needed to cover production as the renewable and storage side grows. What would you rather have; coal, natural gas, or nuclear?

So what if a BEV bought today means more natural gas being used. In 5 years, there will be less fossil fuels on the grid. In 5 years, a ICE car will be polluting more as its catalytic converter wears out.

Independent charger networks cost more to use because they aren't gas stations, and they aren't Tesla. The stations and Tesla charge essentially cost for the fuel. The stations make most of their profit from the store on site, and Tesla doesn't need profit from the Superchargers. The only thing the other charge networks have to bring in profit now is the electricity they sell, which is something BEVs need like ICEs need gasoline from a station.

With the majority charging being done at home, the BEV owner will likely still have lower fuel costs overall, even if they paid more than they would on gas for a trip.

I said it depends of fuel and maintenance costs. Pre-outbreak, UBS put out a report that predicted BEVs would hit cost parity with ICE cars this year in Europe. The cost of the BEV itself is higher than the ICE car, but the operating costs are lower. Those include more than just fuel.

The cited source for the luxury car label was a Japanese page that just said the Mirai had a luxury car price because of the fuel cell.
No cite for the midsize label. Could be Japan's, could be Europe's, or it could have just come from Toyota marketing fro all we know.

"During the 1970s, the intermediate class in the U.S. was generally defined as vehicles with wheelbases between 112 inches (2,845 mm) and 118 inches (2,997 mm)." - Mid-size car - Wikipedia

Even by an older, non-officieal definition, the Mirai is smaller than a midsize
The Model 3 wheelbase is 113.2 inches.
Why not just include it all for the Model 3.
Wheelbase 113.2 in (2,875 mm)
Length 184.8 in (4,694 mm)
Width 72.8 in (1,849 mm)
Height 56.8 in (1,443 mm)
Curb weight

• Standard Range RWD: 3,552 lb (1,611 kg)[4]
• Standard Range plus RWD: 3,627 lb (1,645 kg)[4]
• Mid Range RWD: 3,686 lb (1,672 kg)[4]
• Long Range RWD: 3,814 lb (1,730 kg)[4][5]
• Long-Range Dual-Motor AWD (including Performance): 4,072 lb (1,847 kg)[4]

Tesla cut some weight, even the AWD long range is lighter than the Mirai now.

It's about time spent by the person doing the chore.

For most ICE cars, a person will likely have to stop once a week for gas. Maybe every other week. A gas station on their route is likely, but it still requires pulling into the station, finding a pump, paying, filling up, and then getting back onto the road. Five minutes is probably best case, but it can take longer.

How long does it take to plug or unplug something? The BEV owner gets home, takes the cable off the nearby hanger, and plugs in the car. When they leave, unplug, and replace cable on hanger.

Yes, the charging actually takes hours, but you don't have to babysit the cable as it is happening as with gasoline, diesel, or hydrogen. So the the amount of time done by the person is less than with those.

 

Not quite. And I'm sorry if I wrote that way. I'll concede BEV is cleaner. Going green is the way to go. IS going green as clean as proponents make it to be. ABSOLUTELY NOT. Just because there's no tailpipe doesn't mean that on average 34% of the electricity did at least produce CO2. So much for no tail pipe emissions. It doesn't mean that each and every case is the same but for people considering an EV for the first time, and who do not have solar, which is still the majority, it should be an informed decision whether their consideration/effort is worth it or go walk to work, ride share etc. Heck I have another friend who ride shares from Palmdale to Pasadena for work. Guess what, they leased a Model X and "get free gas". Going green is a decision, and based on vehicle pricing it is a decision for those who can afford it. Heck our decision to go solar was money based. We were told electric prices are going to go up each and every year so that we'd be paid off by now 7 + years later. $36k plus a few hundred if I recall correctly. (Snap shot below). Did prices go up as predicted? The app does not account for that...

It is irresponsible to have the grid fail those loyal paying customers, going green should not have affected that like it did. Trying to turn off too many lights to achieve that goal figuratively speaking. Until they get their act together regarding that, I'm not interested to promote electric use in ANY BEV. I'd rather ride my bicycle to work. Drive only when it's with the family, or getting food to go so it isn't cold by the time I get home...


moto g(7) power ?

 

Well, I don't need to buy the BEV equivalent of a gas station for me to pull into a gas station, which is superfluous in comparison. Spend time going to a destination and made the effort to find a location with a charger, which someone just parked. YES, I'm fully aware a lot of services provide currently in use heads up. It's even worse when a station is broken. Those just show up as available and you get your surprise when you arrive. At least with hydrogen someone warned us that sometimes the station is out of fuel. Informed decision. That's all I want...

moto g(7) power ?

 

Why aren't vehicle manufacturers offer a free 240 V charger to the new owners? Because that opens up a new can of worms. Is the service 240 V? Is there space in the service box? We were lucky to find a reasonably priced electrician to install out 240V EVSE, and there was barely enough space for the 50A breaker. The run was also relatively short. (Sigh, building a BEV gas station at home)...

moto g(7) power ?

 

Which TOU plan are you on and when did you get solar?

 

Replying to jzchen:

Agree that could be considered a minor part of the problem, but we still had rolling blackouts back in the Enron days. Would argue it is mostly mismanagement independent of energy source issues. But point taken.

Our only nuclear power plan has been Diablo Canyon and has been such for 7 years. San Onofe was decommissioned in 2013. It is certainly in its nascent stages, but we do and did have grid level backup during those events. It's fun to watch real time on the CAISO site to see how they respond to high grid stress. Grid backup is growing rapidly but has far to go.

Demand management was also not well coordinated at that time and this is an area being improved that also has much potential.

Would argue they don't need to build any more in any scenario. Part of the problem was they got so excited they have been retiring them too fast.

We are able to account for most of our imports so we largely know what we are getting. But it is true, in theory, that other states could then increase their high carbon footprint sources for themselves.

Yet this isn't happening for two reasons. Nationally and within our regional grid, coal use is deceasing every year and quite rapidly. The other reason is that states within our regional grid are limited to import/export within our regional grid and do not have access to coal generated electricity from Wisconsin.

Would actually like to see massive projects allocated in the next few years for HVDC regional interconnects so we can tap into all that large and rapidly growing clean wind energy in the upper and lower midwest. It will actually make both of our grids cleaner and more resilient. They will get our excess solar PV 2-3 hours before we need it, and with their excess wind, we can further run our hydroelectric stations more in battery mode -that is to say, bring hydro to a near standstill when there is excess wind to later run full blast during high demand.

 

May of 2013. TOU-D-A. SCE is the service provider, Clean Power Alliance energy provider. (We get our bill from SCE). 100% Green option.

Residential Rates - Clean Power Alliance

(Looks like rates dropped significantly. May never get out money back at this rate. . Maybe I should stop complaining about outages)...

moto g(7) power ?

 

Your super off-peak rates are insanely good, although I don’t see delivery charges listed and these look a bit hard to find online. If you charge a plug-in during this time it will cost you a small fraction of gas if delivery charges are tame.

https://cleanpoweralliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Clean-Power-Alliance-Residential-Rates.pdf

We've been on a grandfather E-6 rate plan from PG&E since 2012. The off-peak rates are much less generous and to boot we get the boot (slowly) starting next year when this plan gets phased out over 2 years.

Hopefully your delivery charges are tame and they let you keep your plan for years to come.

 

I didn't realize until you asked. I'm going to go plug in my wife's Clarity, I've been trying to save my parents' electric money since mom retired, thinking I'd save them some...

Yeah, doesn't look like the bill aligns with that rate guess I don't know how to read it...

moto g(7) power ?
View attachment 200363 View attachment 200364

 

Like our grandfathered rate plan, yours came out before there was a problem with matching excess solar that has recently become a grid issue to grid demand. So our rate plans do not encourage the very greenest times to charge. Your rate plan, for example, has it best to charge and move everything possible in your house to use from 10pm-8am all year round. In fact, according to your bill, after delivery charges its only $0.07677/kWh. That’s less than 1/4 of your peak time charges.

Beginning with the last few years new customers have only rightly had the option for TOU plans that have lowest charges aligning the sunniest and lowest demand times of day (morning to mid afternoon).

If your principle aim is to maximize cost savings, charge only during super off-peak. Run pool pumps, spa, dish washer, clothes washer, clothes dryer, heat pumps, etc during those times and you will leave your solar PV to generate the highest credits. By doing so, it’s possible a full BEV will cost you little to nothing more for net metered electricity than you are currently being charged.

 

If CO2 is your concern then it absolutely is greener in the state of California. The plug in's effective MPG in terms of CO2 emissions is over 100, nearly half that of what a Prius emits. Choose an efficient plug in, like the Model 3 or Prius Prime, and it is nearly a third of what a Prius emits.



A gallon of gasoline burned emits about 20 pounds of CO2.
Coal per kW produced emits 2.21 pounds of CO2.
For natural gas, it is 0.92 pounds, though leaks of methane will increase its greenhouse contribution, which is something being addressed.
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

So even if charging a BEV means some more natural gas plants operate, the car will still have a major CO2 emission advantage over even a hybrid.

I was going to state the other reason was greed on part of the utilities. Their not wanting to pay to keep right of ways clear of brush, or pay for other steps to limit fire risk, lead to the fires last year, and the shut downs to avoid fires now. Then as @iplug points out, there is the simple element of mismanagement that has been an issue in the past.

The problems with the California grid aren't all because of going green.

You don't need to buy a Level 2 EVSE. Most BEVs will regain about 40 miles a night by charging at Level 1 with the EVSE that came with the car, which is plenty for many people. If I get something with the range of a Bolt, I don't plan on getting Level right away, and my commute is 61 miles round trip. I also don't intend to do any charging besides at home, and that is what all most BEV owners need for their daily needs.

Were you warned that a gas station could be closed, have lines, or are simply not selling fuel at the time you pulled in before buying any car? Those have all happened to me. Not planning on having gas stations close early on a holiday let to me running out about a mile from home.

And those are reasons why Home Depot and the like no longer quote an installation cost for things like water heaters in the store.

I recall the Leaf having a recommended EVSE on the car's site, and that the dealer could help get you in touch with an installer. I'm sure there was disclaimer about the installation price with all the rest of the disclaimers.

 

Chevy does the same thing.
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