VW Faces $17B Fine for Emissions Scam

I agree that the primary effects of NH3 is from production of secondary PM, both nitrate and sulfate.

However, the point is that controlling emissions of one hazardous nitrogen compound (NOx) is resulting in increasing emissions of an even more hazardous nitrogen compound, NH3, regardless of emission source.

 

It Seems Volkswagen May Move Forward With Electric Car Production In U.S.

 

The article mentions three solutions and the second one, "pay for emissions rights," should be a no-show. However, it reveals how poorly VW understands us.

Bob Wilson

 

kind of like the uber wealthy person who rapes somebody - then he or the family pay off the victim(s) (ah la Michael Jackson) . Then you get a creepy sensation when the victim doesn't complain after they take the uber big payoff. Does that mean that the moral of the story is if you have enough dough then you can get away with virtually anything?
.

 

if you have enough money, you can hire a driver, instead of uber.

 

Source: FTC sues Volkswagen over 'deceptive' diesel claims

The Federal Trade Commission on Tuesday accusedVolkswagen Group of deceiving American consumers into buying emission-spewing diesel vehicles, seeking more than $15 billion in damages in what could be one of the largest false-advertising cases in U.S. history.

The FTC filed a four-count civil complaint against Volkswagen Group in U.S. District Court in California, alleging the company falsely advertised that it was selling new "clean diesel" vehicles that were purchased by about 550,000 buyers.​

I wonder if this will be enough that previously published articles about the "clean diesels" might finally get an "*" footnote?

Bob Wilson

 

glad to hear it. let the lawsuits begin! vdub still needs a wake up call.

 

Source: Volkswagen's U.S. sales decline 10% in 5th straight drop - Chicago Tribune

Volkswagen's American depositary receipts fell 20 percent from Sept. 18, when the emissions cheating was revealed, through Thursday.​

Decreased income but the business overhead of the facilities, business fees, and utilities remains the same.

Bob Wilson

 

still no clue. must be lost in translation.

 

Source: Fuel economy concern allegedly delays VW diesel fix in Europe

Volkswagen is delaying the start of repairs for the 2.0-liter diesel Passat in Europe because the fix allegedly increases the sedan's fuel consumption, according to Automotive News Europe. The beleaguered German automaker asserts that a change in the technicians that are testing the repair is the reason for the postponement.

The Germany's Federal Motor Transport Authority originally allowed people from VW to do the testing, but it then replaced them with independent engineers. VW claims the switch pushed back the evaluations' end by a week or two, according to Automotive News Europe.

In contrast, German media reports claim that the tests showed the fix caused increased fuel use for the Passat, but VW said the allegation was speculation. "We have to guarantee that noise and especially CO2 emissions are exactly the same as before the fix," a company spokesperson told Automotive News Europe.

VW had previously said that European vehicles with the 2.0-liter TDI, like the Passat, only required a software update. When it announced the diesel repairs, the German automaker said the goal was to meet emissions standards without adverse effects on fuel economy or performance.​

Good GRIEF! When is VW lying? When their lips are moving.

Bob Wilson

 

wow, sounds like a pending implosion.

 

The diesel-disease remains: Former Fiat exec: VW fallout may hurt hybrids

Will there be long-term repercussions from the VW scandal?

The biggest impact -- and not only in Europe -- will be the faster move to real-world driving emissions tests. This will completely change the powertrain mix from what is favored by the current NEDC (New European Driving Cycle) bench-test-only cycle. Over the years, even without defeat devices, every carmaker has found ways to achieve fuel consumption and emissions results that have progressively diverged from the real driving conditions the customer experiences.​

Yes, they actually made cars that can meet emissions on both the benchmark and the road. SCR and real-world tuning but then Mercedes in Europe admits they turn them off below 50F. But the real problem:

Which technology will be most affected by the change?

First and foremost, plug-in hybrids. Under the current NEDC you test the car twice, once with the hybrid battery connected and then once without. Depending on the strength of the battery, the first cycle can be run without using the internal combustion engine, resulting in zero fuel consumption and emissions. Since the homologation value is the average of the two tests, you basically halve what the internal combustion engine burned and emitted in the second test, resulting in incredibly low values.

How different are these results from real-world driving?

It is about 30 percent to 40 percent lower than what customers get. That means the real-world driving cycle will highly reduce the advantages of plug-in hybrids. I assume that, combined with their considerable added cost, will drastically reduce their appeal.

Is the same true for full hybrids such as the Toyota Prius?

Yes, but to a lesser extent. A hybrid powertrain has great efficiency in stop-and-go traffic, but has fuel consumption and emission shortcomings during highway driving. The future popularity of hybrids will mainly depend on the weight of stop-and-go driving in the new real-world homologation cycle. ​

This is the fossilized thinking in EU engineering circles that continues to this day. Sure, this guy is two years older than me but he speaks out of both sides of his mouth. He acknowledges Prius hybrids get outstanding urban driving but seems to think ". . . has fuel consumption and emissions shortcomings during highway driving."

So I'm looking forward to the 'new' EU tests because it will finally lay to rest this nonsense. So far, I've not found ICCT or any other 3d party, road-side emissions testing that have reported a problem with the Prius. Given the choice between 'an expert' and 'field tests,' I'll take the field tests everyday.

FYI, this 2014 report from the ICCT is important: http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCTupdate_EU-95gram_jan2014.pdf


NOTE: these are the 2013 models and do not reflect the Gen-4 Prius and Plug-in

Bob Wilson

 

I doubt it will have negative effect to Prius and the likes. What this means is that the European/Australian testing cycle is finally adopting what our American counterparts have been using for years for plug-in hybrids.

The current Aussie fuel consumption for the Mitsubishi Outlander Phev is rated at 1.9l/100km, which is like 123mpg, which is an outright lie! It should show 50km of pure EV, with 7.1l/100km hybrid mode. The current test cycle only considers the first 100km, as if no one drives more than that in a session. That's why I go to US website to check fuel consumption of the same car, much better reflection of the real world.

So, a welcome change afterall! The yanks have been using it for years, it's time we open our eyes and follow suit.

SM-G900I ?

 

When they will sort out diesel NOx emissions on ALL diesels in EU then suddenly Prius will not have any shortcomings

Currently VAG 1.6 TDI in a aerodynamic car does get better fuel economy on highway, there is also higher diesel energetic content to consider and lower diesel price compared to gasoline in most EU countries. So economically speaking Prius does not provide any benefit compared to similarly priced diesel in EU.

Real world example:
Diesel consumption: Skoda - Octavia - Spritmonitor.de
Consumption: Toyota - Prius - Spritmonitor.de

 

Interesting web site:

I adjusted the time range for 2010 to current and took out the engine power range. Then I get something like this:

• How would we get a histogram for the Prius?
• Was there some particular reason for limiting the Skoda power range?

With the changes made, I am seeing over 2,000 Skoda versus just under 600 Prius. Certainly this improves the sample set.

Before joining the site, do they have a way to export their respective databases in a spreadsheet compatible format? The reason I ask is it may be possible to remove the outliers and generate histograms of like-to-like.

Thanks,
Bob Wilson

 

I provided that link on purpose, it's a special version of 1.6 TDI with 110 BHP, price is a little steeper than base 1.6 TDI, it's selling from 2014 on, hence the year in the filter. It's just an illustration of what specific model and tech is capable of providing in real life, with Euro 6 emissions standards and abused testing cycle.

Comparing all engine versions is like comparing it with a Prius with 2.5 hybrid drivetrain and 4WD if it existed.

My only point was to show you why "outrages" statements about Prius highway fuel economy from EU.

 

Thank you! This helps:

For those who haven't followed the links, here are the averages:

• 5.05 l/100 km - Prius gasoline 2010 all
  
• 5.11 l/100 km - Skoda 2014 limited
• 5.88 l/100 km - Skoda 2010 all

This helps explain the attitude and I agree. Once the EU 'normalizes' their fuel and emissions metrics, a lot of eyes will be opened. This is especially true using the Gen-4 Prius and Prius Prime.

The Prius is not an easy car to understand. It took me nearly two years and a lot of data until I got a clue. Even now, I keep finding new things that run counter to standard engineering practices. So I see at least another decade before EU hybrids reach Prius-like efficiency. It is that hard to initially understand because you have to see the whole, not the separate parts(*).

Bob Wilson

* - The Prius efficiency comes from only running the engine at peak, thermal efficiency. When this is more than the car can absorb (i.e., it would have to accelerate,) the excess power is banked in the traction battery. When the traction battery is 'full', the engine turns off and the stored energy moves the car. This Prius trick saves the engine overhead and that is why it works.

The same trick can be applied to a diesel-hybrid. But for smooth operation, the diesel start motor has to be independent of the traction motor. That is possible but requires the starter motor to always be connected to the diesel. In effect an IMA/BAS architecture for the diesel.

The SOC range of the traction battery defines the cycle time and it appears in the Prius to be fairly modest, less than 3 kW/hr.

 

Another eye opener, mine in this case:
VW not alone in defending excessive NOx output from diesels in Europe

Have you tested a plug-in diesel and how was the result?
We tested a Volvo plug-in diesel, Euro 5 though, and a Mercedes-Benz Euro 6 conventional hybrid, and they both had NOx emissions comparable to conventional Euro 5 or Euro 6 counterparts.

So six to seven time more NOx than the limit?
I think it was closer to four and five. They were not that great.

Is that a knock against hybridization?
Hybridization definitely has a potential to lower NOx emissions but you also need the right policy incentives to make that happen. With Euro 5 and Euro 6, meaning pre-RDE Euro 6, the diesel hybrids were not tuned for better performance. The electrification of the powertrain was used to provide like more push and make the cars more snappy. It wasn’t engineered with [reducing] NOx emissions in mind.

Bio box
NAME: Vicente Franco
TITLE: ICCT Senior Researcher
AGE: 33
MAIN CHALLENGE: Getting automakers to reduce NOx emissions from diesels during real world driving.​

Obvious when you see it, it is entirely possible to bad-tune and under-size the emissions equipment and software. Hybridization alone is not enough but as Vicente points out "Hybridization definitely has a potential to lower NOx emissions . . ." Missing are Toyota Prius test results.

Bob Wilson

 

While looking for more details from the ICCT, I stumbled across this July 2015 report:
http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_TechBriefNo1_Hybrids_July2015.pdf

It was released two months before the September 2015, Gen-4 Prius announcements and diesel blow-up. What is telling is the degree 'anything but the power-split hybrid' is held out as a cheap and just as good solution. It is as if they learned nothing from the USA 2000-2009 experience. Still a reasonable read with insights about their hybrid attitudes.

Bob Wilson