VW Faces $17B Fine for Emissions Scam

Source: VW seeks comprehensive deal on emissions with U.S. regulators: source| Reuters

VW seems to think they can find a single USA source to negotiate an all encompassing solution. They are about to get a lesson in civics . . . there ain't a single agency or organization to negotiate a solution. One other curious claim in this report:

. . .
VW aims to fix as many of the affected cars as possible and buy back vehicles where a fix is not possible.


Chief Executive Matthias Mueller has said in January that he believed a new catalytic converter system could be fitted to most affected U.S. vehicles in a solution he believed might satisfy regulators.

"I think we can now offer a package that will come very close to what the EPA is expecting from us," he said at the time.​

Cool! Magic!

Bob Wilson

 

Carpe diem Toyota!

Bob Wilson

 

gen 4 should be a big hit with it's better handling.

 

Except it has the import markup from taxes.

 

It is too expensive - more expensive than the Lexus CT200. It won't be selling compared to the Auris. There is an increasing trade in the import of used gen3's from Japan for the taxi market. Drivers know they're an overall good car, but don't want to pay the £23k/$32k for a base Prius from Toyota UK.

Also, only Toyota and Lexus offer hybrids in Europe to any degree. Ford only offer one; the Mondeo Hybird. It's as expensive as a fully loaded BMW 3 series. Honda have pulled out of hybrids.BMW offer a couple hybrids but the costs are high and they're just token gestures. Peugeot/Citroen have a diesel hybrid but the emissions from their diesel is higher than their usual diesels, and these brands aren't renowned for their electrical reliability.

Its good that hybrids are finally selling in larger numbers and the more diesels that are removed, the better. In many more mature markets in Europe, PHEV and EV sales are increasing rapidly too. As mentioned previously, the Outlander PHEV is outselling the Auris Hybrid in the UK, and Prius sales are now lower than in 2003.

In the UK at least, people are now becoming fully aware of the horrors of diesel emiisions and it is likely that further restrictions and tax will apply to such cars. Electric buses seem to be turning up on more and more shorter, city/town routes, including in my area.

 

I think it's well priced for the specs, (TSS with radar cruise in base model). Sure if one don't wan't all the goodies, then Auris HSD is a budget choice, but then again if you wan't only a transport from point A to B even Auris HSD is too expensive.

My local price list is:
Prius Luna: 25,950 EUR
Auris TS Style + TSS + Bi-LED: 23,630 EUR

For 2,320 EUR difference you get:
- radar cruise control (not even an option in Auris)
- Smart Entry & Start (drivers door only) (Auris Sol +1,300 EUR)
- latest hybrid system (quieter under full load and lover fuel consumption ~0.4 l/100 km diference)
- more rear leg room
- electric lumbar support driver seat and in general a better seat (Auris Sol +1,300 EUR)
- DAB
- made in Japan

 

... and then again no one is complaining over the price of Golf Variant 1.6 TDI DSG Highline with a crazy price of 24.865 EUR, without Smart Entry, rear camera, radar cruise, LED/xenon ...

 

Does having an EU factory that assembles parts into working cars by-pass a lot of the import taxes?

In Georgetown KY, the plant imports the hybrid transmission and batteries but everything from the body to the engine are pretty much USA sourced. So I was wondering if Toyota might put a factory up somewhere and assemble hybrids with critical parts shipped from Japan?

Bob Wilson

 

I think this is the case, only final assembly must be in EU. Because of this Tesla assembles their cars in Netherlands.

 

[QUOTE="El Dobro, post: 2316809, member: 78348"


.

 

The trouble with dealers: U.S. dealers warn VW of net lag

The dealers told Volkswagen that to grow again, they need firm commitments for more sport utility vehicles, which Americans are buying in record numbers. They got a commitment for a new SUV that will be larger than a Jeep Grand Cherokee, Brown said. The dealers also want a compact SUV that is smaller than the current Tiguan.

VW plans to expand its SUV offerings in the U.S. with a new midsize model to be produced in Chattanooga, Tenn., and an additional version of the Tiguan with a longer wheelbase, he said.

The U.S. dealers also want lower prices on cars such as the Passat family sedan. Competing cars like Toyota Motor Corp.'s Camry and Honda Motor Co.'s Accord sell four or five times as many.

When Brown and two other dealers left for the meetings last week, one of their key concerns was that Volkswagen would walk away from targets to increase sales rapidly and fall back to its old strategy of selling smaller numbers of cars at premium prices.

Brown said executives said that they would consider reducing prices but didn't commit to that.

"They were very reserved," he said, adding that the brand will not raise prices to where they were before it started the mass-market push in 2009.

Back then, its Passat midsize sedan had a base price of about $28,000 -- $8,000 more than a like-size Camry. Now that premium is about $4,000 for comparably equipped cars, Brown said.​

Bob Wilson

 

Every now and then, you read something and realize somebody didn't get the memo: AD #1826 – Diesels Could Recover Fast, MX-5 Miata Gets Fastback Version, Lincoln Unveils Stylish Navigator Concept – Autoline Daily

DIESEL SALES COULD RECOVER FAST
Volkswagen can’t sell its diesel-powered cars in the U.S. because it’s still working on a fix for the engines. And that’s really hurt the overall market for diesels. Through the first two months of the year, sales are down 17% but despite that the Diesel Technology Forum predicts diesel sales will recover over the next few years. One reason is diesels will help automakers meet stricter fuel economy regulations in the coming years, especially pick-up trucks. Another reason, there could be up to 24 new diesel powered models introduced in the U.S. over the next year. While diesels are down, if you exclude VW, including Audi and Porsche, diesel sales are only down 4% for the year. So it’s easy to see why it sees that trend reversing.​

Bob Wilson

 

Ok, reasonable heads prevail: U.S. judge sets April 21 deadline for VW diesel fix| Reuters

A federal judge on Thursday gave Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) and U.S. regulators until April 21 to agree on a fix for the nearly 600,000 diesel vehicles on U.S. roadways caught up in VW's massive emissions cheating scandal.

U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer had earlier set a March 24 deadline for Europe's biggest automaker to explain where it stood on remediation efforts, after months of talks with the U.S. Justice Department, the Environmental Protection Agency and California Air Resources Board.
. . .
f no deal is reached by the April 21 deadline, Breyer said he would consider holding a trial on the issue this summer . . .

Former FBI director Robert Mueller, who is Breyer's court appointment settlement master, briefed the judge on the status of the talks on Wednesday.​

I also listened to Autoline This Week: VW Diesels: In Search of Solutions (Show #2009) on Autoline This Week

Mostly a bunch of PR people bemoaning VW 'handling of this' with no technical content. I had higher expectations.​

Then Autoline After Hours: Autoline After Hours

Mostly a rehash of the New York Auto Show, one take-away, these reporters hate hybrids and EVs with a passion. Now they did claim 'a bubble of early adopters' and 'the government forces us to buy these cars.' I don't like it but there is merit.​

The first significant fall off in Prius sales was September 2014. Thereafter, sales sputtered along. Sure one part is the absence of previous CARB support of hybrids and a smattering of opposition taxes. But we need to wake-up and realize the Prius has to compete for regular drivers . . . not sell just to those who like us already own two Prius. It isn't helped to see the initial acceleration is distinctly limited. But we're wandering from the diesel problem.

If a poor person shoplifts a twinkie, it is a crime but when driven by hunger, there is another problem (see Les Miserables.) That VW cheated is given but behind that is a hard engineering problem, making a small diesel perform without busting the NOx limits. Intrinsic to high-temperature, lean-burn, diesels are two problems: (1) soot, and; (2) NOx. To mitigate, diesels need power robbing particulate filters and post-combustion treatments.

The soot comes from fuel particles burning outside-in. It is a localized, carbon-rich burn that leaves a small, carbon particle. In contrast, gasoline is a vapor mixed at the molecular level with oxidizing air. Replace diesel with ammonia as fuel and there is no problem. Heck, hydrogen would be a better fuel to eliminate soot than diesel. Even methanol might work better because of the low ratio of carbon to hydrogen and a hydroxide.

The NOx can be mitigated by minimizing the combustion temperature. Cooled EGR is an excellent choice and the rest can be handled by exhaust treatment.

I am sympathetic to how hard it is to get diesel emissions down to gas engine levels. But the cheat was wrong because it means solving the engineering problem stopped. Cars with SCR were 'patched' by VW in 2014 because some of their emissions controls would accidentally run and a few broke. So they saved them by not using them.

Bob Wilson

 

easiest way to sell more low polluting vehicles is raise the gas tax significantly, and use the profit to provide credits to purchasers.
without incentives, almost no one cares.

 

Gasoline engines produce particles also. The inside of gasoline car's tailpipes are still black. They are different than diesel particles, but still a negative factor on public health. Possibly even worse; being small enough to be invisible to the naked eye also means it is easier for them to get deeper into the lungs. There is more with direct injection, but they are still coming out with port injected cars. With a possible exception for PHEVs, an exhaust particle filter for gasoline ICE cars will became a norm sometime in the future.

 

There's another interesting dilemma about NOx emissions that's seldom, if ever, mentioned.

According to EPA itself, three-way catalysts on modern gasoline vehicles "over reduce" exhaust NOx to ammonia (NH3 - https://www3.epa.gov/ttnchie1/eiip/techreport/volume03/eiip_areasourcesnh3.pdf , page 40, C. Mobile Sources, 1. Onroad Mobile Sources, first paragraph). According to Table III-3 on page 41, the average NH3 emission rate (emission factor - EF) of light-duty gasoline cars, 3-way catalyst, is 101.711 milligrams/mile, while the EF of light-duty diesel is 6.759 mg/mile. So modern gasoline cars with TWC have about 15 times higher average emission rate of ammonia emissions than diesel cars.

According to a well-respected "marginal damage" model ("APEEP"), damage to public health and the environment is much higher for ammonia than for NOx (max damage from NOx emissions is $5,300/ton, while max damage of ammonia emissions is $302,000/ton). The damage maps are available on the APEEP model web page at Nick Muller's Homepage under "AP2 Data Request Form" link on left side of page. Requires (free) registration.

Even if TWC-equipped gasoline cars have very low tailpipe NOx emissions, it seems that there's a trade-off of much higher ammonia emissions, which appear to be potentially much more hazardous that the NOx emissions, at least on a per unit mass basis. Is EPA being negligent in not regulating ammonia emissions from mobile sources?

 

another diesel problem?

 

can't come soon enough afaic.

 

I re-read sources about particulates and a common theme is tight A/F ratio management is critical. So the new fuel mixture sensor in the Gen-4 kicks the can down the road. Instead of 'bang-the-stops' of simple O{2} sensors, the fuel mixture sensor means much finer control. But there is something else to consider when looking at fuel-efficient vehicles.

A key part of the Prius hybrid control laws is cycling the engine ON to run in an efficient power mode and banking excess power in the traction battery. Then the engine shuts OFF and the car uses the stored energy. There is no need for a PHEV because these Prius hybrid cycles, mini-cycles, accomplish the same thing without having to plug-in.

The warm up from a cold-start is an area where it looks like the Gen-4 has done something. The Federal 2 day test has two cold-starts and two warm-cycles. The ratio of the cold-start and warm-cycles is significantly improved over the Gen-3 .

The irony is the urea SCR for diesels can also be an ammonia emitter. However, the ammonia itself is apparently not the problem as much as mixing with NOx to make ammonium nitrate and SOx (less of a problem with low sulfur fuel.) The secondary effects are the problem, not a primary source.

I'm not ready to give up on port injected, ICE and TWC because improved sensors and microcontrollers continue to improve our ability to deal with exhausts. We don't ignore the risks but keep things in perspective.

Bob Wilson

 

The EPA applies a one size fits all approach by making diesel cars conform to the same emission limits as gasoline ones. If this was true of gasoline cars and the diesel particulate limits, direct injected and some port injected ones would already have exhaust filters. Gasoline engines can keep their particulate levels under the filter needed limit by controlling the formation of particles, but they will never reach the emitted levels of a DPF equipped diesel, which leaves the majority of the car's emitted particles coming from the tires and brakes.