VW Faces $17B Fine for Emissions Scam

Isn't it the Gen4 Prius? It is yet to be driven/reviewed but the info leaks hypes seem to point to that direction. 55+ MPG car that handles well (improved suspension, body more rigid than Golf) with Lexus-like quiet interior and feel (at least the door).

 

While you can't have your cake and eat it too, you can occasionally have all of the benefits you really need plus most of those you want yet save money.

For many of us, their existing Prius gives exactly that. The 2016 may give more.

Many TDI owners thought that they were in the same position but there is now a problem and they don't know whether it will be solved to their satisfaction or not.

 

My little Prius introduction at the TDI forum hopefully made friends. One take-away is those *sshole VW commercials are as misleading to us as those $!?##!! Prius commercials have been to them.

Bob Wilson

 

Thanks for that, I haven't laughed that hard in a long time

 

Gotta say all the Lexus models with the exception of the CT are not gutless... Throw in one from Nissan's Infiniti Q50 hybrid, etc. you have some pretty impressive performance cars!

With EVs, with the exception of Nissan Leaf, Mitsu iMev, you have the BMW i3 and i8, Tesla Model S, plus a few other plug in hybrids from various manufacturers, it's a pretty performance centric list.

These products are all (and some more I might have missed) available in Australia right now!

With the others, like the Prius, we were told it's gutless by everyone in the journalism world. Sure it's no 0-100 in 5 seconds, the manufacturers have to built a product that fits the market and the price range. Or they could have put the Lexus V6 in the Prius and forget about the 4-potter.

But I don't think 0-100 in 10 is that bad, at least it's better than most cars on the road today! Journalist like Jalopnik should just grow up and stop comparing the Prius to his benchmark sportscar. Prius cost how much?? and one of his toy cars cost?

Journalism has been that bad since gen 3 released, others follow because that all we do here, cut and paste. Diesels were rising too so most said get a diesel because it's less complex and don't have the toxic battery to change every 5 years (lie spread by, you guess who, former top gear star Clarkson) European's same... That only leaves us with our good old North America. Luckily there are still some very balanced reviews on the Prius. I bought one doing my research on American websites.

SM-G900I ?

 

A few lines above in the same post....

"Unless battery technology or other alternative technologies take a huge leap in the next few years, you would have to be rich to buy a fun car."

...glad it gave you a giggle. Li-Ion is extremely flammable. Wanna sell your Tesla for $35k?

Kidding aside, cool ride... a straight line monster. Have you taken it to the track? Is it true that continuous full-power acceleration out of corners will get it into limp mode due to excessive temperature in the battery pack, as reported in the Tesla forum... MS overheating race-track. I'd like to see how it does on the German Autobahn the next time I hop the pond.

Speaking of stinking TDIs, the last time I was there we had an Audi A3 1.9 TDI, with 4 adults + luggage, barreling down Route A9 from Berlin to Munich at 110-130 MPH. Good times! Tesla has finally awaken the Germans... but too bad it's having a tough time there. For the $$$, most German don't see the Model S as a luxury car... not on the same level as the land-yachts like the A8, S-Klasse or 7 Series... or is it really a sports car. Them Krauts, don't they know that you can't put a price on Cool.

In the US I've learned to appreciate my very capable MINI... feels right at home on a twisty coastal highway or mountain road. Lateral G-force is what gets my adrenaline pumping and unfortunately this is where a 2-tonner can't get out of its own way...

Laguna Seca lap times

Tesla on the Ring

Mini on the Ring... and...

Bonus : Prius on the Ring

 

TDI owner-pride! VW should contact these people to donate and help facing the losses. Why not? They have contributed before...

 

Turns out it's not just VW who've been 'at it'. Opel/Vauxhall diesels are also pump out more than mandated which 'could' indicate some shenanigans with emission controls.

Vauxhall cars are pumping out up to 17 times EU limits for nitrogen oxides | Daily Mail Online

I wonder if this means the US market Cruze complies or not? Has it been checked or was it just European diesel car manufacturers? The Cruze diesel is based on the EU version.

 

We'll have to part company here:

I think back to the TDI advocates who have so poorly visited PriusChat in the past. Their snark did not make friends and simply sharpened our understanding of the problem. Yes we have diesel friends here but the key is keeping to the facts and data. That is how I've handled my responses in the TDI thread:
Visting Prius Owner - TDIClub Forums

My last post was:

It is certainly true that Prius people are more A to B efficiency oriented. So Chris Hogan at PriusChat introduced a vehicle efficiency formula:

• <total_volume> * <MPG> = (cubic_feet mile) / gallon

So if we take the GEO Metro XFI versus for last model years sold:

• 4,005 ft{3} mile / gallon - 1994 Geo Metro XFI (manual, regular)
• 4,092 ft{3} mile / gallon - 2015 VW Golf SportWagen (manual, diesel)
• 4,730 ft{3} mile / gallon - 2015 VW Jetta Hybrid (auto, premium)

Prius people are attracted to the highest efficiency, Jetta Hybrid. Premium and diesel are close enough to be treated as equal. But even VW can do the math and see a 16% improvement with the hybrid versus the 2% improvement of the 2015 Golf TDI over a 21 year old, GEO Metro XFI. But something else is at play.

The Jetta hybrid is VWs first generation and like the Volt, uses premium. Furthermore, the price trends for hybrid parts are headed lower as battery, motor, and power electronic prices continue to go down.​

One of their members baited with a 1994 Geo Metro XFI compared to a 2008 Prius. So I compared his 21 year old Geo to the largest Golf SportWagen and Jetta Hybrid and introduced Chris Hogan's vehicle efficiency formula.

Bob Wilson

 

Why would I do that? Tesla will give me at least $50k
Li-Ion is not nearly as flammable as gasoline, and you don't need to be rich to enjoy EVs.
The i3 is the second only to the Tesla cars in terms of fun. In some ways it is more fun.
The Leaf and to some level, the Volt are far more fun in day to day driving than the Versa or Cruze.

As for track performance, I don't drive on a racetrack, so that doesn't concern me anymore than how well the car handles driving on the moon.

The electric drive is anything but sluggish. The instant response and 100% torque is extremely smooth and fun.
And if you need more mileage, the second gen of electrics are due out over the next one to 3 years.

 

even the cleanest among those choices, the ev's phev's - some folk are so "black&white" that they will decry that the phev/ev electricity is dirty - unless their transportation is via wind/pv - & 100% recyclable battery stored - grid free juice. So you have the cheats, the poor who by necessity drive any smoggy ride they can afford, & you got the rolling coal celebraters on one end of the spectrum .... and the ridiculously unrealistic on the other. Like Bob says - perfect is the enemy of good enough. It's the enemy of "better" - too.

tradeoffs .... MPG's & price.
.

 

Well this is weird, the Argonne Labs data:

(Please use "refresh" to get the latest version of this graph.)

Here I've plotted the Jetta TDI, Jetta hybrid, and Prius. So I noticed the greatest spread is in the UDDS HS tests at 23 C (ordinary temperatures.)

Jetta TDI, UDDS HS @23 C

• 39 MPG
• maximum ~43 hp
• 1-4000 samples (not for MPG calculation)

Jetta hybrid, UDDS HS @23 C

• 49 MPG
• maximum 60 hp
• 1-4000 samples (not for calculation)

Prius, UDDS HS @23 C

• 70 MPG
• maximum 45 hp
• 1-4000 samples (not for calculation)

What confuses me is the Jetta TDI and Jetta hybrid have different, maximum HP loads. They are following the same mph profile but the loads are not proportional. This suggests the Jetta hybrid is being 'sand bagged.'

Bob Wilson



Ok,

So I went to the part of the Argonne Labs benchmark for the data used to calculate the mileage. The earlier charts were primarily the 'warm-up' phase, not used for mileage calculation. Then to compare the Jetta hybrid, Jetta TDI, and Prius, I combined them in this hard to understand, three layer graph:

• Jetta Hybrid (large blue dots on bottom) - It is obvious VW does not know how to make a fuel efficient, Otto engine. But at 49 MPG in the UDDS HS test at 23 C, the Jetta Hybrid is better than the cheating TDI, 40 MPG, but less than the 70 MPG Prius. When braking, the Otto engine is turned off, a standard hybrid control law and critical to its success compared to the TDI.
• Jetta TDI (medium orange dots and yellow lines) - Now we see the emissions cheating VW runs the engine even when braking. This is the excessive fuel burn that gives the TDI the worst mileage, 40 MPG. In theory, VW could turn off the diesel by cutting the fuel and restart the diesel when power is needed. But the TDI starter motor makes this unlikely and it may lead to worse emissions, the problem the cheat tried to hid.
• Prius (small green dots, on top) - Under positive load, the Prius engine fuel consumption is slightly higher than the TDI diesel but we're talking within 10-20%. In contrast, the Jetta Otto has twice the fuel consumption as the diesel. The Jetta hybrid is only saved by turning off the Otto when it can. The Prius turns off the engine during dyno braking, the negative dyno power modes, and even in these braking modes, the Prius has the option of sending engine and regenerative braking power to the traction battery.

This explains how the 2016, expanded, engine-off range will lead to higher MPG while the current Prius has to run the engine at speeds over 42 mph even when braking or slowing down. Furthermore, the 2016 comes with a more efficient engine even closer to diesel performance. The 2016 transmission is more efficient than this one.

Bob Wilson

 

just as i suspected.

 

Prius was mentioned - yes. But maybe another manufacturer should get mentioned ..... just a thought;

Tesla Motors Inc (NASDAQ:TSLA) &quot;Over The Air Updates&quot; Uncover Detroit&#039;s Self-Harming Strictures

Why bring up OTA updates? Simple - stealerships sometimes get good money for doing this - a thing that shouldn't necessarily require owners to be inconvenienced in the 1st place. Of course if VW did have the capability, and reprogrammed their smokers to burn clean .... well that would immediately make owners aware that there coal burners suddenly get poorer mileage & have less power. And you know what kind of litigation that's going to bring about. Another double edged sword to fall on.
.





Merged.

my wife's youngest sister dated Lee Majors for a while. Said he was a real chauvinist type ... then again she's no angel & - it WAS the 70's. The 6 Million Dollar Man, in his late 70's now have a squeeze 36 years his junior. So just like with VW diesel fans ... it must be love . . . . Betcha didn't think i could segway back onto topic so easily

.

 

Excellent link.
The graph illustrates what kind of breathing he europeans have in our cities:



It's outrageous.

 

Diesels are finished here - or will be. The Government have an ideal opportunity to start taxing them more and the above results are the idea excuse. Real world emissions haven't changed from Euro3 at the turn of the century.

The euro6 compliant Opel/Vauxhall is the same as the engine in the US Cruze. Will the US be checking the GM diesels or just VW?

 

I wonder if the Chevy software holds a "national defeat device"...

 

Vauxhall (European) and Chevy (US) are run by two different departments, even GM owns both... yes/no?






Merged.

Reading from the general consensus, I don't think this scandal will kill off diesel cars anytime soon. There are still some pretty rusted diesel die-harts out there who would do anything to keep their diesels the way they are; some don't give a rat's about this emission; some will keep buying because the incentive is still there; etc. etc. The VW diesel sales in UK has not been affected in September after the scandal broke out, it will be interested to know the sale impact this month.

Unless the UK government steps in and cut the generous diesel subsidy and the diesel cars purchase incentive immediately, this scandal will just be forgotten over time.

 

Opel and Vauxhall are cars with different badges. (Vauxhall for UK)
Chevrolet were different models, with same powertrains. Chevrolet is about to end in Europe (has ended in some countries...). Cruze uses the same platform as the Astras. Captiva used the same platform as Opel/Vauxhall Antara.






Merged.






I have a theory over this large deviation of emissions only to Vauxhall, however.
These 20,000 cars are real, have they scrutined each engine mileage and EGR valve operation status?
If not, we may have poor servicing and/or alterations misleading the results.
I know a lot of Opel CDTI owners that have clogged EGRs (if not regularly cleaned) and some are even inoperative. Design problems, I guess, but diesel does gum the manifolds...

I hope to find the complete study report very soon the check this out.