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VW Faces $17B Fine for Emissions Scam

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by Jeff N, Sep 18, 2015.

  1. asjoseph

    asjoseph Samuel, '04 Ruthiemobile

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    ... taken in context with unexpected diffusion of hybrid vehicles, circa 2006, examining VW's motor sport strategy suggests millions mindlessly plundered by VW execs, showcasing turbo-Diesel technology in World Endurance competition was more an act of desperation, than bravado.

    That VW subverted FiA's World Endurance Championship to favor turbo-Diesel technology would imply the directive to cheat emissions couldn't have been a grass roots groundswell emanating from an isolated enclave, deep within the bowels of VW. But, instead, implies it had to have been a downstream initiative, the directive to manipulate emissions a key integral wholly incorporated into a wider corporate strategy prompted by fear, impending threat of a hybrid technology Wolfsburg execs could, circa 2006, offer no viable substitute.

    VW's various works racing teams know VW's cars, better than VW does. From DTM to WEC, there is no conceivable way VW's motor sport community couldn't have known. Implication looms, in all likelihood, those earning 7 figure incomes on VW's motor sport gravy-train, from high level FiA officials to principals of VW's various works teams, were well in the know of VW's shenanigans, yet turned a blind eye.

    Everyone talks to everyone. Motor sport journalists infiltrate and embed every aspect of organized motor sport. There is no way Fleet Street journalists could not have known.

    Better part of a decade, and not one VW person or automotive journalist stepped forward, to do the right thing? -- Samuel, '04 Ruthiemobile.
     
    #521 asjoseph, Oct 3, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2015
  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I think the cache might have shown an earlier version of the table. I was able to find more credible dyno numbers.

    Bob Wilson
     
  3. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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  4. asjoseph

    asjoseph Samuel, '04 Ruthiemobile

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    ... from the race track paddocks, to the board room, all the way down to their dealer networks, automotive journalists directly interface every aspect of the automotive industry. Automotive journalists thoroughly evaluate, road test, document and painstakingly articulate every minute aspect of every vehicle sold in America. There is no conceivable way the big rags (e.g., Automobile Magazine; MT; C&D; R&T) could not have known VW was cheating emissions.

    They knew. Everyone did, but us. Well knowing which side their bread's buttered, not one automotive publication dare step forward, to do the right thing -- Samuel, '04 Ruthiemobile.
     
  5. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Some of us knew something wasn't right. It seemed a miracle that VW was somehow able to achieve the "clean" without having to take the extra steps other automakers did. The "clean" kept getting used as a promotional tool, even though it wasn't actually as clean. It didn't achieve a SULEV or PZEV emission rating.

    So, we tried our best to focus on the better choice. There was no way any traditional diesel could possibly compete with a plug-in hybrid. It was just a matter of waiting for the gen-2 rollouts to provide undeniable proof. Who knew that wouldn't even be necessary, that diesel would fall apart on its own prior to that.
     
  6. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    Turns out Ford, Mercedes, Mazda and BMW have been upto it in Europe too;

    It’s not just VW: Official tester claims four more diesel car giants break toxic emissions limit | Daily Mail Online

    "Researchers found BMW, Ford, Mazda and Mercedes cars emitted levels of nitrogen oxides up to seven times the legal limit"


    And as mentioned previously, VW are likely to be sued for £2.4 billion (US $3.6 billion) in the UK, or £2k a car. I think this will be the end of diesel in cars in the UK. Manufacturers won't dare sell them. They barely passed Euro5 and unlikely to pass Euro 6 without expense.

    I think we now know why Mazda decided not to bring diesel to the US.
     
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  7. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    A Google search for "Jetta dyno" found a link to Argonne Labs, a Dept. of Energy facilities that does advanced vehicle testing and research.

    Source: Downloadable Dynamometer Database | Argonne National Laboratory

    "This data is from the Downloadable Dynamometer Database and was generated at the Advanced Powertrain Research Facility (APRF) at Argonne National Laboratory under the funding and guidance of the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE)"

    I was pleased to find both Jetta and Prius test results so I picked up the test data from both. They ran these four tests in common:
    [​IMG]
    The US06 test is a 'lead footed driver' cycle, 8.02 miles long.

    A cheat on the emissions test might also have had a cheat on the mileage tests. However, I can find no evidence. So it made sense to download the test data and see what we find:
    [​IMG]
    • X-axis - are the dyno watts in 10 hp units, 7457 watts ~= 10 hp.
    • Y-axis - the rate of fuel consumption in cc per second.
      • The raw data is in grams/sec so I used 0.832 kg/l to calculate the volume/second. This is the mid-density of the EU standard 0.820 to 0.845 kg/l.
    What is curious about this chart is the near zero fuel burn when the diesel engine during braking events, negative dyno power. Low fuel consumption at idle is OK but no consumption is curious unless reflecting 'engine braking.'

    So let's look at the Prius, same test:
    [​IMG]
    • X-axis - dyno power, negative is braking, positive is driving and accelerating.
    • Y-axis - independent fuel consumption, cc/sec.
      • Inspection of the data revealed ~10 second offset (*) between the measured fuel data and the corresponding engine rpm. Sampling intervals are 1/10th of a second so we can get finer correlations but this offset is not necessary for an MPG test.
    Now we know the Prius achieves zero fuel burn by turning off the ICE. We can also see the Prius can (and does) burn fuel sometimes when braking to add battery charge. The few times the engine control laws require it to continue running, we see ~0.25 cc/sec burn. In fact, we see this same flow on both sides, braking, and running.

    CONCLUSION

    Someone who would cheat on an emissions test might also cheat on a mileage test. If the diesel fuel consumption were taken from the vehicle OBD instead of measured directly, then US06 could also be spoofed. Reporting extremely low cc/s at idle would work. But separating idle fuel consumption versus engine braking is more complex than these simple charts.

    As follow-up, I took "Jetta_03", the worst performing US06 and see what it shows for idle cc/s. It looks like "Jetta_01" but higher fuel consumption. To get idle fuel consumption, I need zero velocity and engine rpm at the median, low value. The Prius idle fuel consumption can also be detected with a little more complex test.

    Bob Wilson

    * - More detailed analysis reduced the time offset error to ~10 seconds.
     
    #529 bwilson4web, Oct 4, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2015
  9. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    I was wondering if the study which found VW cheating was funded by Saudi, Russians and oil companies. After all they have vested interest in it. Or was it Toyota and Tesla? Nissan?
     
  10. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

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    The International Council on Clean Transportation | ICCT

    "The International Council on Clean Transportation is a nonprofit that tries to provide independent science to government agencies that regulate the environment. It hired the university to do a standard emissions tests on diesel cars in the U.S. Volkswagen has been hyping diesel cars that are environmentally friendly and fuel efficient. "

     
  11. godzillaismad

    godzillaismad Member

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  12. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    sorry if I wasn't sarcastic enough. It was a joke directed at conspiracy believers.
     
  13. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    I was meaning the German government.
     
  14. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    I found the guilty party behind the Volkswagen scandal. It's none other than the infamous German master criminal Dr. Mabuse!

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    Carmakers say they 'can't meet' Euro 6 emissions targets
     
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  16. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    Wasn't that the battle cry of American automakers in the 60's and 70's concerning the original emission requirements?
     
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  17. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I remember a paper about 7-8 years ago by some EU 'scholars' who claimed the Prius was selling because Americans were duped by 'marketing.'

    Bob Wilson
     
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  19. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    Well ONE of the guys. Here's his linked-in account & a recent interview where he states, "I am moving to Germany to help them pass emissions testing in the EU and emerging countries like China and India."

    Things that make you go Hmmm..... Oliver Schmidt | LinkedIn

    At Volkswagen Schmidt Happens
    Autoline
     
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