VW Faces $17B Fine for Emissions Scam

Euro 6 limit is 0.08 g/km (0.06 for gasoline) and even Euro 5 (in force from 2009) is 0.18 g/km for diesel passenger cars, so, it is quite clear they have cheated in Erope as well (including the 1.6L popular engine) and the market share is much bigger.
Also, I think the fact that older diesels are exempted is not realy an excuse.

 

i think it's more important to focus on making sure every vehicle is compliant with current regulations. of course we want trucks and busses cleaned up, but we're at the mercy of our government officials.
to say that vdub's cheating is not a health threat is to miss the point.

 

Definitely more of a possible health problem in Europe where there are probably 9 million of these cars versus half a million in the US.

Perspective is often needed. The problem is the cheating not the health.

We should not pretend there are deaths from this. There were from the other recalls. This is a fraud issue. I think they need to throw the book at vw, especially in germany. We have recently had multi year cheating by honda's takata air bags (the most serious), GM ignition switch, and toyota's bad pedals plus entrapment. All these companies lied to regulators. GM previously turned off emissions controls on cadalacs when the airconditioning was turned on.

The regulators need to get fixed. WVU gave them information 18 months ago. The car companies need to be fixed. I'd like to see at least a $5B us fine for vw.

 

Why do we want more taxes?

 

So, what happens when the SCR tank runs dry. Does the car still run? I could see people just driving without it.

 

Limp mode perhaps? and lots of warning lights.

 

Smarter taxes don't necessarily mean more taxes overall. Compared to other taxes, taxes on gas are hard to evade and discourage wasteful behaviour that uses up a resource that may be needed in future, damages the environment and damages the balance of payments amongst other problems.

 

You answered your own question.

This news doesn't alter the Greenscore, because VW Jetta did pass the emissions standard for SULEV rating. Both the EPA and CARB put it on the dyno and it read clean. (So VW will just reprogram the car to run "test mode" all the time, thereby maintaining its rating.)

ALSO this does absolutely nothing to denigrate diesel engines, because all these cars passed the tests just fine (using urea neutralization):
BMW
Mercedes
Chevrolet
Mazda
Honda
Toyota
repeat: Our manufacturer of the Prius makes a clean-running diesel that passes emissions easily.

 

Just because it read clean doesn't mean it actually was. Sending out false data is part of the concern.

Jetta didn't earn a SULEV rating either. In fact, it wasn't even ULEV. The rating was simply a pass, saying it met minimum requirements for sales eligibility.

 

There is a bunch of warnings when the tank gets low. When it hits empty, there is a final warning. When the vehicle is shut off and restarted after that, it is in a limp mode with reduced acceleration and speed. Don't know the max speed, but is low, maybe 45mph max.

 

Pollution problems are affected by taxes, but not solved with taxes. It takes constructive regulations, properly enforced to really make a difference. The CFC problem was not solved with taxes. Putting scrubbers on coal plant stacks was not caused by taxes. The giant mess which is the tar sands pits of western Canada will not be solved with taxes.

This is not a statement opposing proper taxes for roads, but at some point the incorrect idea of taxes being the proper means to stop destructive practices is not supported by history. It does have ripple effects, but only to a certain degree.

 

Those tests were also used to calculate the EPA mileage. Certainly the Jetta cheat would fool their owners into thinking diesels out-perform the EPA test. In fact, it would fool a lot of people who did not realize VW was cheating. But the ripples continue to move outward:

. . .
One of the other groups of people that loved these unusual cars was automotive journalists (including this reporter). For the same reasons many owners chose Volkswagen TDIs over competing hybrids, car reviewers loved and always recommended them to people looking for green cars that were still fun. Patrick George, Managing Editor at automotive enthusiast blog Jalopnik (and, it should be noted, a former colleague), drove the 2015 Golf TDI SportWagen at its launch event earlier this year and gave it a glowing review.

“A lot of journalists recommended this car for years. Any time someone was looking at a hybrid, it was kind of like ‘Well you know, some of the hybrids are decent, but some of them are also really boring. You should look at these too because they have great fuel economy, a ton of power, fun to drive and they’re good on emissions,’ Like the people who bought them, that’s how we all understood these cars to be.”

When asked about how he felt recommending Volkswagen diesels, he said “I feel a little bad about recommending these to people over the years, but at the same time, like the buyers themselves, we made these recommendations on the information we were given and nobody knew about this.”
. . .
Source: Eco-conscious car buyers aren't ready to forgive Volkswagen​

Not everyone feels betrayed and some continue to love these cheating diesels. Some rationalize the cheat by denying NOx is a pollutant that needs regulation. Some still brag on their inflated MPG that came from the cheat. Some still love the extra pickup and acceleration from this cheat. In effect, these particular diesel defenders revel in the side-effects of this cheat. It would be like Forbes admiring the wealth of a Bernard Madoff.

The Swiss are not amused:

Switzerland has announced that it will temporarily halt the sale of Volkswagen diesel-engine vehicles after it was revealed earlier this month that the automaker cheated on emissions tests.

Thomas Rohrbach, spokesman for the Swiss federal office of roadways, is quoted by The Associated Press as saying that "the ban is on all cars with diesel engines in the 'euro 5' emissions category. It includes all VW models — as well as Seat, Skodas and others in the VW group."

The BBC says that could affect 180,000 unsold cars in the country that have 1.2-liter, 1.6-liter and 2-liter diesel engines.
. . .
Source: Switzerland Bans Sales Of Some VW Diesels : The Two-Way : NPR​

Bob Wilson

 

I was curious about sales effects and it is still early. However, my favorite source is Ebay completed sales:

These are small numbers but suggestive that after Sept 11, a number of low mileage, under 60,000 mile cars were sold. Above 80,000 miles, no significant change in the price and miles. Still, a very small sample set.

Bob Wilson

 

I suspect that the best approach is likely to be a combination of taxes and regulation but I think than taxes can do far more than you seem to believe.

Looking at Europe we see gas costing far more than in the US and cars using far less of it. I really doubt that this is a coincidence.

If gas cost twice as much in the US as it does now, do you think you would see as many large SUV's and pickups on the road. Do you think you would see as many people commuting alone for 50 miles each way or do you think some of them would share a ride or find a different solution. For shorter trips you would likely find more people walking, using a bike or using public transport than is currently the case.

Less gas use would overall mean less pollution without adding any new regulations.

It's also possible to have targeted taxes that address some externalities. For example, in some cases, rather than having a fixed regulatory limit, you could have an increased annual registration fee (tax) that rises, possibly sharply, above a certain threshold. That gives both manufacturers and owners extra freedom and choices but with some some potentially major financial implications. It also lends itself to a graduated response where the externality is local or regional rather than global.

I'm not proposing a specific solution but I believe that something should be done and that there are far more possibilities for effective and reasonable action than many people may currently believe.

 

Because of the cheat, that 'Greenscore' is valid only during the official emissions test. It is completely invalid out on the road while the software defeat device is activated. For a half million US VWs, and 11 million worldwide, that 'Greenscore' is invalid until the recall is applied. None have been done yet, because that recall is simply not available at this time.

 

Look at the air quality and pollution levels in Europe. Despite the higher taxes, they are overall worse in Europe. A lot of the gas taxes are aimed at having drivers use diesel. Not exactly a good pollution strategy using taxes. In short, the intense taxes have a lot of social effects, but far less pollution reduction effects than the US, where most pollution reduction has been the result of regulations. Let me be clear, there is a definite need to make any taxing structure positively contribute to pollution reduction. I will fully agree than many taxation schemes can be destructive to pollution reduction. But because the social ripple effect of taxes is less fuel use does not directly result in less pollution. Europe is proof of this.

Not really true. This whole VW fraud was based on using less fuel for more performance resulting in more pollution. The regulations they violated were based entirely on the chemistry of requiring some of the fuel to clean up the pollution products. This is true across the board. If emission regulations were to disappear, gas use would not change but pollution would skyrocket. A more problematic result would occur if CAFE regulations were to disappear. How burning the gas is done should not be confused with the amount of gas burned.

There is a bigger picture in play that we may or may not agree upon. The only way to eliminate fossil fuel pollution is to eliminate fossil fuel burning. Attempting to eliminate fossil fuel burning just via taxes is not going to work. At some point it has to become economically and regulatory prohibitive. That is a hard path. Taxes play a role, but do not provide a solution.

 

I agree we should move to very low pollution, no pollution cars (EV, FCV, etc.), but raising taxes on low income workers is not the answer. I would be more in favor of adding taxes to sales of new ICE car sales to promote the sale of EV, hybrid.

Don't tax the poor and struggling. Even $50 a month extra for gas can but them into the red. I have a neighbor that works at Walmart that does not use her home air conditioner and keeps her electric bill under $50/month, while our summer electric bills are $200/month here in Florida.

Tax people that can afford it.

Also, remember that EV and FCV still causes pollution at the electric plant unless it's solar, nuclear, wind, or hydro.

 

Dieselgate: VW Scandal Explodes 'Myth' of German Integrity, Reliability (La Repubblica, Italy)