VW delays Jetta TDI diesel in U.S.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 15 2007, 04:33 PM) [snapback]540195[/snapback]</div>

The 2005 Jetta tdi EPA rating is 35mpg, puts out 50% more CO2 than a Prius, puts out more than 100x more smog emissions, has less interior and luggage space, and its even slower than the Prius. The Passat has about the same amount of passenger and luggage space, similar acceleration, but its EPA mileage falls to 27mpg. CO2 output is almost double that of the prius, and smog emissions are 30-50% worse than the Jetta. According to edmunds the 5 yr maintenance/repair cost of the tdi's is about 80% higher at ~$9k compared to the Priuses ~$5k.

Sorry, what was your point again?

Rob

 

I want the rumored 2009 Honda Accord Diesel instead. Honda quality, and great diesel engine that I can buy in CA.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dipper @ Nov 15 2007, 06:09 PM) [snapback]540243[/snapback]</div>

You'll be getting a high fuel economy car that barely meet the lowest CA emission. This is the same trade off that you see with gasoline cars where you get cleaner emission but lower MPG. A good gas electric hybrid like HSD is the only way to get out of that "trade off" box/cycle. It has also become clear that Two-Mode hybrids also follow this MPG<->Emission trade off.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Nov 15 2007, 03:50 PM) [snapback]540262[/snapback]</div>

The Accord engine is supposed to meet the new future Euro emissions standards, while it gets great 50 mpg US mileage. And with a REAL TRUNK!!!!!!

Try that in the Camry hybrid driving at interstate speeds, a few passangers, and hauling 6 luggages in the trunk.... at the SAME TIME. Wait, it does not have room in the trunk.

I really wanted a Toyota Camry hybrid, but I need the trunk... and better gas mileage. And no Toyota, I am not going to buy your new Sequoia and Land Cruiser for extra space.

Oh, and in CA. There is access to clean diesel. You can buy 20% biodiesel from Rotten Robbie gas stations now. And 100% biodiesel if you want to risk the engine.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob Smith @ Nov 15 2007, 05:19 PM) [snapback]540221[/snapback]</div>

City... sure, what's the Highway?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 15 2007, 06:05 PM) [snapback]540271[/snapback]</div>

42mpg on the automatic (EPA)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 15 2007, 07:05 PM) [snapback]540271[/snapback]</div>

Thats average, not city.

rob

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob Smith @ Nov 15 2007, 09:47 PM) [snapback]540340[/snapback]</div>

Funny, for the 2005 I found 38/46. Right here.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dipper @ Nov 15 2007, 07:02 PM) [snapback]540266[/snapback]</div>

"Clean diesel" is not really as clean as people would like you to believe. Seawolf is correct, these will barely make it in under the dirtiest emissions level allowed. As evidenced by the fact that they didn't make the cutoff and had to go back and try to tweak something. The only "clean" diesel currently on the market is the mercedes which is still 10s to 100s of times dirtier (smog emissions wise) than the cleanest straight gasoline cars. You can run 100% Biodiesel in any diesel car, with no problems. Its only straight veggie oil (SVO) that needs blending or mods. Unfortunately BD doesn't help much with emissions, and the CO2 nuetral claims are mostly bogus. For small scale WVO based stuff its pretty true. On a large scale the biggest/cheapest source for oil to make BD is palm plantations in SE asia. These plantations are an environmental disaster, and the whole foreign dependence argument is pretty much out the window.

Rob

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 15 2007, 09:54 PM) [snapback]540346[/snapback]</div>

That is using the old calculation. Under that calculation method the Prius was 60/51. Under the new revised calculation method the '05 Prius gets 46 av (48/45), the '05 Jetta tdi (man) gets 35 av (32/41) and the '05 passat gets 27 av (23/34).

You can find all the old (click on EPA windowsticker link) and revised numbers here:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/

Rob

 

Hi Johnycat,

The reason the TDI is heavier is that the engine is compacted graphictic iron and thicker (for the high compression ratio), the body is standard steel and more of it to get the equivalent strength, the suspension has to be heavier to support the extra weight, and the turbo with extra exhaust plumbing. The Prius uses the high strength steel, so less is needed for equivalent chasis strength. The drive train weight is distributed front and rear, with the batteries in the back so the front prius suspension can be lighter. The motors and battery in the Prius are heavy, but so are all the 3 sets of cogs that have to be strong enough to handle the torque of the TDI engine and the lay shaft/syncros in the transmission, the starter, the alternator and power steering pump and bracetry in the TDI.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Nov 16 2007, 12:07 AM) [snapback]540401[/snapback]</div>

Really?

Here's what I've noticed, having owned both cars. On the highway, the Prius gets blown around like a leaf. The Jetta tracks true, and tractor trailers don't really bother it. So I guess I'd rather have the Jetta's superior steel, rather than the Prius's aluminum/steel combination.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 16 2007, 07:52 AM) [snapback]540475[/snapback]</div>

If you have changed to wider tire and/or larger rim diameter, you would know Prius performs very well on the highway with crosswinds.

When I have my 205mm tires and 17" rims on the Prius, I thought all the wind died down.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 16 2007, 09:52 AM) [snapback]540475[/snapback]</div>

Hi Jonnycat,

Which is proof of what I said, or at least most ME s would understand that. High strength steel has similar modulus to other steels. Its more springy, that is it bends more before it breaks. Because it takes more steel in the Jetta the the lever arms are shorter, so the chasis is stiffer. But not really any stronger. And evidence of that is what happened to the poor guy in the S10 pickup truck in San Diego when the Prius went right thru his passenger comparment, and ended up much less damaged than the S10. Or you can take an equal weight 12 by 12 inch piece of sheet steel versus 6061T6 aluminum alloy sheet and twist it, if you want. The Aluminum piece is much stiffer, even though the material is about half the strength, and the samples are near the same strength.

The modulus of various alloys of the same base metal tend to be the same, even when the strength (what force it takes to permanantly deform a material) is dramatically better. So, if you put less steel in the chasis, it will flex more. But with high strength steel, it wont break.

The BT Tech plate helps de-spring the rear end of the Prius dramatically, btw. And then the car just rolls a little bit when a big gust hits it. Yaw is only noticable, while previously it was quite dramatic (1/2 a lane at 65 mph) here.

I initally thought this was a problem with the aero design. Which at car shows back in the 80's what VW would tell you the reason they made their cars that shape - to improve cross wind performance. There is a long history of aero cars that had very poor manners in windy conditions. Due to the CP being way ahead of the CG. But the shape of the Prius does not have this problem. It just seems so because of the springyness of the chasis.