Vigil in Providence, RI tonight for 1000 war dead

Along the same lines, many Republicans essentially blame Clinton for 9/11, saying that Bush was "only" in office for 9 months. These same people ALSO blame Clinton for the first WTC attack, which occured barely a MONTH after he took office. Could a Bush-booster please explain that disconnect?

If the recent recession was a mess that Bush inherited from Clinton, then isn't the recession of the early 90s a mess that Bush 41 inherited from Reagan?

 

Tax Cuts

The statements made about the future of the US and the world are just that - opinions, unless some of you have the ability to foretell the future. And that's fine. We all have a right to our opinions.

However, I would like to take exception to some of the comments about the recent tax cuts. I am a volunteer tax preparer for low and low middle income taxpayers through a program sponsored by AARP and the IRS. Last spring I did over 200 returns, and I can tell you without exception, ALL of these low and low middle income taxpayers received a tax cut. How could they not when the low bracket tax rate went from 15% to 10% and the child tax credit went from $600 to $1000 per child? Granted, they didn't receive tax cuts of thousands of dollars as some very high income taxpayers did, but you must remember that the vast majority of taxes in this country are paid by the higher income folks. Many of the lower income taxpayers pay little or no income tax so naturally their tax cuts will be lower. Percentagewise, most low income taxpayers received larger cuts than the high income taxpayers. I have heard this argument so often about how the wealthy got all the tax cuts, and I really don't believe most people realize how little taxes low income people pay. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but it's a fact.

Now if what you desire is a redistribution of wealth and income from the wealthy to the poor (much of which already takes place through our income tax, welfare systems, Medicaid, Social Security, etc.), then you are really talking about socialism.

 

(prius04 statements in red)

Why would I give this government extra money just so they can give it to rich people?

There you go again! The tax cuts lessened every tax payers tax burden. Why would “rich people†want to give their own “extra money†to this government just so they can give it out in income redistribution? It's not the government's money!

Since my government has no interest in investing money in common people I have to do it myself. And that is where any extra money I might have goes.

OhmyGod!!! YOU are a closet Republican. (How’s that for perceived slander?)

That is exactly the Republican’s point. YOU are able to spend YOUR money more wisely for yourself than a bloated government ever could.

As you had stated in one of your posts, “I'll be OK because I've got a good deal of money put away and I'm nearing retirement. (In fact, I benefited from Bush's tax cuts . . .†By your own admission, you now have "extra money" (no “might have†slimy copout allowed!) So, when you are donating that “extra†money to your “common peopleâ€, be sure to tell them it was President Bush’s tax cut that allowed you to be so generous.

You've now slandered me twice.

Slander n.

1. Law. Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
2. A false and malicious statement or report about someone.

Please do point out the “false and malicious statementâ€(s) you accuse me of making toward you, and I “might have†a reason to apologize. Disagreeing is not slander per se, but you may have felt maligned . . . considering our differences, politically speaking.

You questioned my motives when I went to this vigil, and now you've called me a hypocrite.

No, I questioned moveon.org’s motives regarding the "vigil." They may have asked YOU to “pledge NOT to make this vigil political in any way.†- but that does not prevent moveon.org from using this event - and those who they can sucker under false pretense to attend - from using the event as a political statement.

From the moveon.org web site regarding the “vigilâ€:
“It's up to us, evidently, to show the Bush administration what it means to support our troops.â€
http://www.moveon.org/news/vigils-tonight.html

SOUNDS LIKE A POLITICAL STATEMENT TO ME!

As for calling you a hypocrite: Stop making hypocritical statements and I will stop pointing them out.

And up to now I always was quite impressed with the wonderful decorum on this board.

This is “Fred's House of Pancakes . . . First Amendment is your friend in here.†Mine too.

 

Prius04,
Don't give up! As you point out, looking at percentages when dealing with the Bush tax cuts is very misleading. Furthermore R. Reagan and his trickle down guru, (can't think of his name off hand) ultimately realized that "Trickle Down" didn't work and in the end quietly repudiated it. Larger, disposable income to the rich does not stimulate the economy nearly the way that allowing the low income families who can't meet thier basic needs more take home salaries which they can and will spend on merchandise. (By the way at the current federal minimum wage, one has to work 60 hrs/week, just to reach the current recognized poverty level!).

It is also notable that even some of America's elite, most notably Bill Gates Sr. (don't know about Jr.) have actively lobbied against elimination of the Inheritance tax (a.k.a. the "death" tax), based on the idea that we each create our own opportunities and success in this country rather than inheriting a life of leisure from our progenitors. And that elimination of the Inheritance tax only creates a defacto aristocracy which is the antithesis of the American model.

As usual just my 2 cents,

 

What really baffles me is the 180-degree turn that the Republican Party did on fiscal responsibility. The Balanced Budget Amendment was originally a Republican idea. Ronald reagan campaigned on a promise of a balanced budget. Once in office he ran up a record-breaking deficit, and with it a record-breaking national debt. This situation continued through Bush Sr., and it was Clinton, the conservative democrat, who not only balanced the budget, but paid off the debt and left his successor the greatest surplus in history.

It took W. a couple of years to squander that surplus and break Reagan's record, giving us a new record national debt.

He gives lots of reasons and excuses, claiming "the people" (i.e., his rich friends) "deserve" their money back, and ranting about the need to fight a war against a country that had nothing to do with the attack on us, and whose brutal dictator was matched in brutality by many our country supports and has supported in the past (hint, hint: the House of Saud, great buddies of W).

But the bottom line is, what happened to fiscal responsibility? What happened to living within your means? What happened to pay as you go and paying your own way, rather than leaving collossal debts for your grandchildren to pay off??????????

 

Thank You prius04 for confirming your standing as a member of moveon.org. It just confirms my suspicions regarding your post which started this string. “I just checked my email and found out . . .â€

Don’t you think that you were being a little deceptive?

You could have just as easily wrote: Hi everyone, I am a member in good standing of moveon.org. We are organizing a rally tonight to . . . Oh, and by the way we at moveon.org are, in promoting this vigil, aligned/affiliated ourselves with the Win Without War coalition which among their members includes United For Peace who’s stated goals include . . .

• Working to counter military recruitment of young people, particularly people of color and others who are denied decent job and educational opportunities**

• Opposing the occupation of Afghanistan and U.S. support for the Israeli occupation of Palestine**

• A visible and assertive street presence wherever major candidates appear, including the presidential and vice presidential debates, demanding an end to the occupation and empire-building agenda;

** We want to call attention to the need to develop concrete proposals for UFPJ’s work on these issues.

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=2206

“That the vigil WAS ONLY to honor the fallen.â€

B.S! That was only the publically sated reason.

I think you need to brush up on that High School debating class debating technique you read about, and accused me of using. I did face your “factual points†(regarding the "vigil") and I do at the same time attack your motives - But, you may notice, I did not ever question your patriotism.

 

Obviously Evan and I as 2 practicing physicians disagree somewhat. While I hear and understand Evan's point, what I also see is patients who too often cannot afford the meds they need. And yes Evan it bugs me sometimes when they would rather spend it on cigarettes. While I agree that there is much abuse in the system, there are also the truely needy who get less than they disserve out of our current medical system. And I truely believe that BASIC health care is a right not a priviledge. I take all medicaid and medicare comer as well as champus (military medical insurance which has a rep for poor reimbursement)

 

Prius04, Please reread my paragraph that has you upset, and this time don’t gloss over the part where I write “in promoting this vigil†. And please forgive my past/present tense “are/have†mistake. Not that it makes a dif.

“You could have just as easily wrote: Hi everyone, I am a member in good standing of moveon.org. We are organizing a rally tonight to . . . Oh, and by the way we at moveon.org are [have], in promoting this vigil, aligned/affiliated ourselves with the Win Without War coalition which among their members includes United For Peace who’s stated goals include . . .â€

Here is the trail from moveon.org to United For Peace you asked for.

1) “ . . .working together through the Win Without War coalition to make this possible.â€
http://www.moveon.org/news/vigils-tonight.html

2) “. . . the Win Without War coalition, our member organizations, and others including UFPJ . . .â€
http://www.winwithoutwarus.org/

3) “ . . .• Working to counter military recruitment of young people . . • Opposing the occupation of Afghanistan and U.S. support for the Israeli occupation of Palestine . . . • A visible and assertive street presence . . .†(AND OTHER SCAREY STUFF!!!)
http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=2206


DECEPTIVE??? I don’t just make things up. But I do also think the saying “Guilty by Association†applies here.

I also meant to comment on another one of your statements:

“Maybe because you are a Prius owner I feel that I just might be able to get you to see the world as just a little different than you do.â€

Yes, I am the impetus in my family in purchasing a Prius on moral grounds and I’m the one who would have a “Bush in ‘04" sticker on the back of my Prius if I didn’t also have a wife who’s political orientation I respect. Not only is she a liberal UC Berkeley graduate and all that implies, she was also a member of the Berkeley Chapter of the Feminist Alliance!!!

I have traveled extensively around the world and have seen first hand REAL object poverty (Africa, The Philippines) and political oppression (the former Yugoslavia, Saudi Arabia, North Korea). I’ve watched “poor†people here in the USA drive their car to the store, buy nonessential food products on welfare stamps, and chat on a cell phone while doing so. (What’s up with that?) And I have watched the so called “politically oppressed†here demonstrate in the streets . . . try that in China or the other countries I’ve mentioned and it would probably get you killed.

So don’t delude yourself into thinking that you . . . just might be able to get me to see the world as just a little different. . .

Me personally, I think it is you who can use having your horizons expanded.

 

Really? Is that the best you guys can do? "Its much worse in most parts of the world, so you should all just sit down and shut up." I'd like to think that American can and always will TRY to do BETTER (I'd also like to think that Kerry stole that line from me).

Have you ever told your wife "well, at least I don't beat and rape you like some husbands; you should be THANKFUL!" If you truly believe that the United States of America is the greatest thing to happen to mankind, a dynamic insturment of change and a beacon of hope to the world, then I think you'd agree that the US should always strive to be the most free, the most fair, and the most just society it can be. The goal shouldn't be to do _just_ enough to stay ahead of the pack.



One in five children in the wealthiest nation in the world live in poverty. Yes, some people abuse and game the system; that's both unfortunate and unfair. There are some who intentionally bear children they cannot hope to support, all b/c of the welfare state. The system needs a fix, but letting children starve shouldn't be one of the options.

Food stamps seems to be a popular right-wing target, probably because of Reagan's fictional "welfare queen." Do any of you have any idea how much is actually spent on Food Stamps annually? $16.6 bln in 2002, an estimated $19.2 bln in '03, and an estimated $22.6 bln in '04.

Did you know: there's a not-insignificant number of military families on welfare, who depend on Food Banks for their meals. I guess those lazy bastards shouldn't spend so much damn time in Iraq and Afghanistan, and get a real damn job.

Speaking of the military, the DoD's budget was $343 bln. Russia spends $60 bln, China spends $42 bln, and Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria spend a COMBINED $14 bln. So we could halve our defense budget and still dramatically outspend every single potential enemy on the planet. If you're looking for waste, look no further than what Republican President Dwight David Eisenhower termed the Military Industrial Complex. You could spend all day slashing at Food Stamps and Head Start and not come close to a 1% savings. Or we could cut waste at the DoD and still be extremely safe.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(prius04\";p=\"39054)</div>

DUDE!! YOU MUST BE BLIND SO I WILL PUT IT IN LARGE TYPE.

But first let me define “link†for you:
Link n.
1. A connecting element; a tie or bond: grandparents, our link with the past.
2. An association; a relationship.
3. A causal, parallel, or reciprocal relationship.

But since you seem to not be able to do it for yourself:

<a href=\'http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=1879\' target=\'_blank\'>http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=1879</a>

\"Member Groups of United for Peace and Justice:

(scroll down to the groups who’s names start with “Mâ€)

. . . MoveOn . . .

Geeze, and you are a member of Moveon and don’t know what they stand for???? Give it up, you have been had, and don\'t know that of which you speak."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(prius04\";p=\"39256)</div>

I did not give you the same link three times! Most likely an honest mistake on your part, but on each one of the HTTP links I gave you there was a reference to the next organization . . . MoveOn > Win Without Wars > United For Peace - but apparently you did not want to read . . . you wanted to ask me for a “link†which I took as playing the semantics game. So, I went directly to the United For Peace web site, clicked on “about UFPJ†then on “Member Groups.†There in black and white is “MoveOn.†You asked, “Where did you get the time to find these obscure connections?†I would hardly call that obscure! And as for the time it took, seriously dude, maybe two minutes . . . it’s on UFPJ’s web site!!!

Now you come back with:
In any case, you still have not proven that Moveon.org totally agrees with everything that UFP stands for.
Please go back and read my posts. It was YOU who accused me of “implying†. . . I never stated anything about MoveOn’s stated goals. Especially since MoveOn’s web site is so lacking in that respect . . . unless you have some “ActionForum software.†I did, and still do question Moveon’s motives behind the “Vigil†especially now that I found a direct link between MoveOn and UPFJ. You would not have caught me within a hundred yards of any of those “vigils†for fear of implying support for that which UPFJ stands.

It’s you who are in denial regarding the link between MoveOn and UFPJ . . . as you wrote:
“you make a list of "stated goals" of an organization that is "affiliated" in some way with another organization that is "affilitated" in some way with moveon.org.â€
Yes dude, SOME WAY, like a member in good standings.
Yep, “Lay down with dogs, wake up with fleas.â€

"I read some of the items on the United For Peace Web site and found it to be a lot more reasonable than you portray it to be. Indeed, you took some of their abstractions totally out of context."
I cut and pasted directly. IE ". . . .• Working to counter military recruitment of young people . . • Opposing the occupation of Afghanistan and U.S. support for the Israeli occupation of Palestine . . . • A visible and assertive street presence . . .â€
That to me IS some scarey stuff! Maybe not to you, but you seem to be trying hard to distance MoveOn from UFPJ. WHY??
PROVE WHERE I TOOK ANYTHING ON UFPJ’S WEB SITE OUT OF CONTEXT!
SHOW ME THE LINK!!!

 

Shiny happy people holding haaands!