Turning off your Prius while refeuling?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AlphaTeam @ Aug 9 2006, 02:07 PM) [snapback]300348[/snapback]</div>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks!
For including the link to a very scary story. I checked it out. Was about to give up, while cursoring down. I had gone quite a distance when the story suddenly appeared!

I think people need to know "the secret" if they check out that story?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(prez1 @ Aug 9 2006, 04:15 PM) [snapback]300465[/snapback]</div>

Guess your friend does not like to read the warning signs on the gas tank then.... :lol:
It specifically said to put on ground before filling.... to properly ground any potential static charge.

 

We need to be clear about this. Cell phones don't start car fires; electric discharges start car fires. Many known cases of refuelling fires involve people getting in and out of their cars (for example, to use their cell phone) while the pump nozzle is in the filler. We've all experienced static shocks while getting out of a car. Static discharge is an ignition source.

And of course cars should be off while fuelling.

 

To clarify on the bladder: Think of the bladder like a water balloon: The gas goes inside the bladder and the bladder expands as it is filled, and contracts as it emptied. There should never be any air space (or vapor) inside the bladder. The only open space for fumes to accumulate would be inside the filler pipe.

But the Prius has the habit of starting the engine on its own any time it thinks it wants power from the engine. Recharging the battery, heating the cabin, warming the exhaust system. Since the car draws just over one amp in ready mode with A/C off, and up to 7 or 8 amps (maybe more) with A/C on, and a few amps with just the fan on, etc., it is quite likely for the engine to come on while fuelling the car if left in Ready mode. Your dad's assumption is therefore flawed, because a Prius in Ready mode with the engine off is not the same as a conventional car shut off.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(richard schumacher @ Aug 10 2006, 05:54 AM) [snapback]300733[/snapback]</div>

Yes but-cell phones are radio transmitters and radio transmissions can and do cause static discharges. Due to the frequencies and power levels involved it is highly unlikely that a cell phone would be a problem. However it could, and due to the huge number of cell phones and the huge number people filling gas tanks anything that can happen is going to happen sooner or later.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AlphaTeam @ Aug 9 2006, 04:07 PM) [snapback]300348[/snapback]</div>

Hi Alpha,

By "airated" you mean something like the Prius bladder burping gas back at you ?



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tumbleweed @ Aug 10 2006, 12:06 PM) [snapback]300812[/snapback]</div>

Hi Tumbleweed,

Cellphones are limited to .60 watts, and the antennas are covered with non-conductive plastic. We are not talking "Tesla Coil" here. There is not enough voltage on the antennas to spark through the plastic covering, even at the tip of the antenna. You would have a tremendously greater chance of starting a gas fire by rubbing the antenna with a wool mit, then discharging to metal near the gas tank than any radio frequency effect at .60 watts, and .8 to 2.2 GHz frequency.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(richard schumacher @ Aug 10 2006, 08:54 AM) [snapback]300733[/snapback]</div>

That's really scary --I always get in and out of my car while the nozzle is in the tank and I've seen those news stories where the the whole car ignites just because of static electricity. I think I heard that to prevent that from happening, always touch something else, like the side of the pump, before grabbing the nozzle. Is that correct?

 

Tom and Ray (Car Talk - NPR) fielded a similar question recently, though not related to a Prius. The guy wanted to know if he had to turn his car off at the gas station. After the requisit "Aren't the signs that say 'turn off before fueling' big enough??", they concluded that the bigger problem isn't a possible explosion, but the possibility of a running vehicle getting into gear (dog, kid?) and ripping the hose out of the pump. Now there is no shut off valve, fuel spraying everywhere.

To the original poster - Tell Dad it is your car and if he wants to drive it, he has to follow your rules. Same thing he told you when you were 16. Besides, shutting down a Prius isn't real hard: Push Power - it will put itself in Park, no more effort than pushing the Park button. Nor is starting it horribly difficult - put your foot on the brake (which you have to do to put it in D anyway) and push Power. OK, one more HUGE effort on his part but it will power up faster than he can put his seatbelt on. He IS wearing his seatbelt, right??.

 

donee:

I have no argument with your facts, nor your assessment of the probabilities. That said, no doubt there were legions of Boeing engineers and airline maintenance folks who felt the same way about the fuel pumping equipment installed in the fuselage tanks of the B-747. On the opposite side of the scale, there are lot of family and friends of the folks who were aboard TWA 800 on 7/17/96 who likely take an understandably different view of low probability fuel explosion hazards. Yeah, 99.99% of the time, people can get away with potentially unsafe behavior around fuel. But every once in a while...poof! If you've ever visited someone enduring treatment in a burn ward, that would put a different spin on the issue. The precautions, all of them, are easy and incidental. Having your dead, burned skin scraped off every day is not. Just me, but when I pump, the car is totally off, and my cell is shut inside it.

Bruce:

Next time you get gas, follow the hose back toward to where it emerges from the pump. You should see about a foot-long, slightly wider, segment in the hose, near its base. That's a "tear away" valve, which should immediately close off the flow of fuel, should the receiving car somehow rip the hose away from the pump. I certainly don't recommend experimenting with its effectiveness, so again, I vote for in-park, HSD off (yeah, I understand that includes Park), and the parking brake firmly set.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ekpolk @ Aug 10 2006, 03:36 PM) [snapback]300967[/snapback]</div>

Hi Ekpolk,

Well, just because your cell phone is inside the car does not stop it from transmitting. If you receive a call during refueling, the cell phone will be responding to the base station with its transmitter.

Your comparison to the B747 fuel pump and fuel sensor wiring is completly irrelevant. First off, we are not talking about somebody sticking the cell phone down into the fuel tank, with there arm down the filler pipe! The Boeing 747 Fuel pump and sensor are down in the fuel, or airspace above the fuel inside the tank. Second off, the 747 did not have a bladder, so it had allot of extra air down in the fuel tank. Military aircraft use air purge and nitrogen fill to displace the air, the Prius does not even let the air in. If TWA 800 had a bladder, the chances it would have blown up would have been allot less. Third, it takes a spark to generate ignition, and antenna being covered with plastic avoids this. Thirdly off, the maximum potential on the antenna is much lower than you can generate getting back in the car on a winter day during fueling, then back out. Fourthly, the induced voltages on a metalic conductor will be less than on the antenna, due to the weakening of the field between where it was radiated (the phone) and where it was received (the metal surface of the car).

Putting a metal device in your hand, then next to the fuel tank opening may promote a static discharge, but this has NOTHING at all to do with the radio transmitter in a metal cell phone. Do the same thing with an empty metallic cell phone chasis and its just as danagerous. Metallic clothing articles could be similarly dangerous in low-humidity weather - brass buttons on a wool overcoat for example.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ekpolk @ Aug 10 2006, 11:36 AM) [snapback]300967[/snapback]</div>

Ever notice how gas pumps are not located on an incline?
As has been gone over ad nauseam in another post here on PriusChat . . . I ain't putting on my parking brake on level ground! :angry:

The biggest hazard with fueling a car is static electricity, and, unfortunately transferring fuel can generate large amounts of static electricity.

In the automobile world the problem is taken care of with the design of the fuel hose. It too is a ground path to keep the static potential between the pump, ground, and car at safe levels.

In the aviation world, wire grounding cables are connected between the aircraft and fuel truck, between the aircraft and the earth, AND between the fuel truck and the earth. (much more potential for problems transferring several hundred gallons of gas into an airplane at higher rates of transfer. )
http://www.generalaviationnews.com/editori...column&-nothing

If you wish to be safer while fueling your car, forget about the parking brake . . . break out a set of grounding straps and ground yourself to the car!


http://www.18004memory.com/focus.asp?sku=700017

Just kidding . . .

But, whatever you do,
DO NOT GET BACK INTO THE CAR AND WAIT FOR THE TANK TO FILL!!!!

The Petroleum Equipment Institute's Three Rules for Safe Refueling While filling up...
1) Turn Off Engine
2) Don't Smoke
3) Never Re-enter Your Vehicle

Watch the video!!! :blink:
http://www.pei.org/static/

.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ Aug 10 2006, 06:02 PM) [snapback]301157[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, as a matter of fact, I have. Ever notice what happens when a 5000 lb SUV driven by an inattentive boob makes "unintended contact" with your car. No, or couse, the PB won't anchor you to one spot, but I'll take all the "stay put" I can get, thanks.

 

donee:

My point was not to make a close technical comparison between how the TWA800 disaster happened. Assuming you don't buy into the missile theories, it was a unintentional, inadvertent ignition of fuel vapor, by what everyone assumed to be a low-probability source -- the tank's own fuel pumps. Very different in details, compared to what can happen to you at a gas station, but not in concept. And no, of course you're not stuffing the cell down into the tank. But as you can see from the Pensacola News Journal link I posted previously, automobile fueling fires do happen. All I'm advocating is taking every reasonable step you can to isolate yourself from the danger. Yeah, the phone stays active in the car (unless you completely shut it off, of course), but if you've left it inside the car, and shut the door, how is it going to have access to the fuel vapor to ignite it? Regardless of the setting, if you put fuel and oxygen together in the right mix, and add an ignition source, you've got a fire or explosion. If you're willing to risk the low-probability ignition sources, that's of course, your choice. I simply prefer to eliminate the easy to control sources irrespective of the probability it will cause a problem.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ Aug 10 2006, 06:02 PM) [snapback]301157[/snapback]</div>

Apologies for the split response, got my quotes messed up...

Yes, I'm aware of what happens in the aviation world. I flew jets in the Marines for almost nine years. And I have seen some "fun with fuel", both in ground and air-to-air refueling. When you're transferring the stuff through 4in hoses at 50 psi, it gets messy and dangerous in a hurry when things go wrong. In fact to this day, I consciously think to ensure continuity of grounding when I pump gas. Might have to look into the wrist thing, given how OCD I am... And, btw, all the fueling I've been involved in, car and jet, has been done on a flat surface. Our crews always check the brakes and chock the wheels before a hose goes anywhere near a plane. No, I don't go quite so far as to chock my Prius . Hey, how'z it going to hurt you -- put the brake on. If nothing else, it might just save your transmission's parking pawl when the boob in the SUV overlooks your Prius sitting there. . .

 

For about the past year, I have almost never shut off my Prius (the rare occasion being that I actually go into the station to get a snack or something). First off, the engine coming on is very predictable... if the battery gets down to two bars, it will soon start the engine... but going down to that level is very rare. The gas bladder contains gas fumes, as well... so I don't think there is any risk of gas fumes igniting from a spark.

My father drives an RX400h hybrid... and it clearly shows that you can fill in the gas without shutting it off... just put it in park and activate the gas door switch... a light on the dashboard says something like ready to fill. I've never shut it off either while filling up.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ Aug 10 2006, 07:02 PM) [snapback]301157[/snapback]</div>

How forty-eight state governments allowed the petroleum industry to get away with self-service gasoline has always amazed me. In New Jersey (and I believe Oregon) it is unlawful to pump your own gas. And our gas prices are no higher than other state's self-serve, and lower than most. The benefits of safety and comfort for the customers and employment for the pump jockeys are dividends to the public, not to the oil company shareholders.

(Don't get me started on oil company abuses: Booking obscene profits by applying standard %age mark-ups to speculation-inflated raw material cost and then not spending for needed facility maintenance and expansion.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ Aug 10 2006, 04:02 PM) [snapback]301157[/snapback]</div>

Each to their own. Personally I don't get out of my car without putting the parking brake on first, level ground or no.

As to the topic at hand, every gas station that I've checked has posted as part of their rules for using their pumps that you must turn off your ignition. Since the only way you can be sure that the ICE won't start is by turning the car off, turning it off sounds like a good plan to me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ekpolk @ Aug 10 2006, 08:43 PM) [snapback]301173[/snapback]</div>

Of course automotive fueling fires happen. My reply to AlphaTeam you might remember, if you think I doubt this.

My comment is that the metal chasis of some cell phones are more prone to promote a spark, than any radio energy from the cell phone. So, its a good idea to leave the phone in the car. Not because it radiates low level radio energy but because holding it will efficiently couple any static on a person and the metal phone can concetrate the static Electrical field at its corners and promote/intensify a static discharge.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Aug 10 2006, 06:56 PM) [snapback]301183[/snapback]</div>

I'd be willing to bet the if the RX has a feature where the car actually indicates "ready to fill" [with fuel], then it's programmed to keep the ICE off until some other event, such as putting it in R or D occurs. What's the benefit in NOT turning the thing off?