Trading my Prius for an Xterra

You seem to be convinced that OPEC is "the enemy". Most of the OPEC countries that you would probably consider as harmful have regimes that were put in as a result of US action (Iran, Saudi Arabia....) and the others are largely allies (Jordan, UAE). Why do you want to give OPEC the finger? Do you want to give Iowa cornfarmers the finger because demand for corn went up? What about the boys and girls on the NYMEX? (Google!) The only realistic way to lessen OPEC's impact is to get our own oil as there are far too many people who won't give up their vehicles for a toyota prius. It's not a miracle one size fits all vehicle - it can't handle, it's slow and it's annoying to get even today due to demand. It's an amazing vehicle but it's not for everyone. We also need nuclear power so we can support EVs and plug in hybrids.....these are the real solutions, not suggesting everyone buys a prius when toyota can't even keep up with current demand. We need realistic solutions, demonizing OPEC while on the other hand cutting off our access to our own oil off of CA and FL and in Alaska AND at the same time cutting off our access to safe, clean nuclear power is just absurd.

The future is nuclear power, more domestic oil production, EVs, electric trains, diesel....delay that future and things might get bad in the mean time. CO2 emissions again are not really a concern to the average person as the oceans and volcanos give off tons of CO2 and again you have bigwigs in jets and copters using thousands of times as much CO2 as Joe Schmoe & family. Not to mention emerging markets that rely on power plants/factories that emit many worse things then just CO2 which trees need to survive but harmful chemicals....however when you have people coming out of poverty as a direct result of CO2 and even some harmful emissions it's kind of hard to argue against it.

 

very nice wise crack on germanys past. of course we remember what hitler did to the world. we have changed our direction 100% while america has done 100% the opposite.

east german pollution is a direct result of soviet occupation.
the rest is a direct result of forced industrial change on US occupation.

it is now the USSR/NAZI germany of the world. i hope you are proud.

the 123d is a nice example of a economical car in europe. the prius is not, as it cant keep up a good autobahn speed.
it is a great car for US however.

i was just trying to show example of other options in the world, instead of being closed mind on one car like you are.

the 123d was 3,000 euros less than a pruis in DE market, BTW.
you can buy alot with a euro! no so much with dollar right now.

maintence cost? its a diesel! it has air filter, petrol filters, and thats it!
change the oil every 16,000 KM, no spark plug entitys, no valve adjustments!

cost of owner ship is VERY cheap with diesel.
i will continue my driving pleasure on the race track much to the dismay of the naysayers. i will continue to use about 1 tank of gas a month in the m3 track auto.

my 123d is one of many great cars for saving fuel. the prius is also, but there is no such thing as one great vehicle. the prius has a high compression gasoline motor AND electromotor. two things to service, and MUCH More electronics which is always known to fail.
my 123 doesnt even come with automatik windows, as i opted to against it, (as most europeans do)

again, many options, none the best, so stop acting like it is Jesus's auto!

doing your part to reduce fuel use should also include riding a bike or walking to work, and working CLOSE to home! i made this change! the best way to save gas is NOT driving!


i must add- sports car driving may be reinvented! lets waste some gas and go fast! (or at least go fast!)

80MPG 1987 Ford Mustang Produces 400 Horsepower
this will be interesting once released!

 

What maintanence costs are you talking about? The Prius has very few, especially costly brake repairs. Fact is you still have moving parts on the diesel and those will require repairs, especially new emissions equipment and the turbo itself. I'm not new to turbocharged vehicles.

What do you consider a good autobahn speed? One member here drove over 300miles at full throttle (over 100mph) on the autobahn and still managed 23 or 28mpg? How many autobahns are there in the world and how would using this type of requirement be useful as criteria for car choice to those countries that do not have an "autobahn"?

We are not sheep my friend. You are simply making rediculous arguments based on your love of BMW and driving at high speeds. This does not work well for the rest of the world or for a large percentage of the driving population. For some people your opinions work well, for the vast majority they do not.

This is not about favortism or brand loyalty. It's about doing the right thing for everyone and everything. If you want to drive a vehicle that causes degradation then you should be charged accordingly to help mitigate those issues. So should the rest of us. If people were forced to pay for the damage caused by their habits we wouldn't have so many problems. Well that and educate people on those problems since most people are ignroant to the facts.

 

No argument from me on this one. Our country is horribly designed in this respect and finding a job close to home is not so easy when most housing subdivisions are 20-30 miles from major occupational facilities. Thankfully many cities in other countries are making changes and reporting the beneficial findings. Go Sweden! lol

 

What do you mean by released?

The 1987 "notchback" Mustangs were very light (easily 2700lbs if stripped of non-essentials). It makes a great platform for alternative designs. I used to race a 1987 Mustang GT (hatchback). It went 6.87 in the 1/8th mile.

 

by released i mean the technology to be sold and used by major manufactures, some think it is a conspiracy and have hidden such ideas to have powerful, fast and extremly efficient cars.

the auto x compitition will be great event.

and i cant see how fl8 you can make argument out of everything, including when i share the same view of low dependency on petroleum.

it seems unless the prius is giving 10 out or 10 praise you get hurt feelings from it. take it easy, will you!

 

Wouldn't that be interesting. How do you propose we quantify 'degradation' and determine the amount of money the earth should be compensated for said damage?

ound:

We've got the gas guzzler tax, but all that does is generate money for the IRS as far as I know.

 

Some of the calculations are quite simple others are not. There are plenty of environmental economists working on the prospect and detailing the trillions of dollars worth of ecosystem services we receive each year. Other aspects are losses to productivity in humans, forestry, agriculture etc. due to pollution and environmental degradation. There are plenty of studies on the subject and a great many government agencies as well as private businesses and organizations are coming to terms with the simple fact that environmental degradation costs us in both the short term and long term.

Taxes being applied in the right places and going into the appropriate "coffer" is a very important aspect of this new type of management yet "True Cost Pricing" can help the so-called free market deal with some of the limited governmental efficiency practices. Ultimately the rules must be set and strictly enforced AND the population has to be made aware of the problems.

 

I'm not sure who made that crack, but if anyone did its uncalled for.

Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that your country does have an air quality problem which you originally claimed it did not. Incidentally, todays smog forcast is poor for all of Germany, and very poor in the south.
Rheinisches Institut für Umweltforschung - EURAD-Project

I would agree (as I said before) that the 123d is a decent enough car, with better than average efficiency. I would not agree that the fact that the Prius is not optimized to cruise at 120mph is a fault. As an engineer you should be aware that the power required to maintain a given speed against air resistance goes up with the cube of velocity. Based on the numbers below, we see that even in a low drag vehicle like the Prius air resistance already accounts for about 1/2 of the total resistance at 60 mph. At 120mph the power required to overcome drag will be up 8X, and the overall power requirement will be up 5X. Given that you will arrive at your destination 2X faster, your fuel consumption should be up ~2.5X. If the 123d was optimized to run at 60mph instead of 120mph its efficiency at reasonable speeds would probably be pretty impressive.
Prius Palm Mileage Simulator

While I would agree that Germany appears very progressive in many areas of conservation, sustainability and renewable energy it seems to me that the Autobahn is a glaring contradiction in its encouragement of very inefficient driving.

The one diesel you could get here recently was the '06 VW Jetta TDI. Edmunds put its 5 year cost of ownership at $36,988 compared to $34,702 for the Prius. Thats even with the TDIs depreciation propped up artificially as they have been unavailable since '06 and they are in demand due to high gas prices. Given that the Prius is also bigger, faster, and much much cleaner its kind of a no brainer for me.

The Prius' maintenance consists of oil and oil filters plus the occasional air filter until 120k miles. At 120k you need spark plugs. There is no maintenance required on the electric drive system. All fluids generally last >100k miles. Brakes generally last > 100k miles. With almost 10 years of data now in, the Prius has proven extremely reliable. Much more so than any VW or BMW according to Consumer Reports data.

If you chose to drive a dirtier vehicle because it is faster and more fun to drive, that is your prerogative. But I'm unclear why you expect us to be supportive of that choice. Sure there are worse choices you could make, but thats a pretty poor excuse. Despite my love of sports cars (WRX) and off-roading (Land Rovers), I traded those vehicles in as I could no longer rationalize their costs to the environment or our national security. As an engineer I could have easily continued to pay the fuel bill, but the price of gas does not begin to cover the full cost of operating these vehicles IMHO.

The Prius is just one car, and its not perfect. When something better comes along I'll happily consider it. For now, I can't see anything out there in our market or beyond that strikes a better balance of performance, emissions, safety, utility, space, cost, reliability and economy. The soon to arrive '09 Jetta TDI is probably one of the closest contenders so far, but after my analysis linked below it doesn't seem to stack up.
http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-hybrid-news/49909-2009-vw-jetta-tdi-emissions-results.html

Rob

 

The real question is will your taxes result in:

A. Net decrease in emissions

or

B. Net increase in emissions or no significant change

scroll down for the correct answer

Many people think A would be the result but the reality is that every drop that isn't burned here will be burned in China, and every drop not burned there will be burned in India - and the cycle will continue with the other emerging economies. (Vietnam is growing incredibly fast, there are many other African and Asian countries forecasted to grow at 5%+ annually though you probably won't hear about many of them on CNN until things get going).








( Correct Answer is B )

 

Again, we are not just talking emissions. At least not in the case of my reply to your question. This is in regards to every aspect of life and all the degradation that goes along with it.

I don't watch CNN so I'm not sure what they have to say but my sources World Watch Institute is one) do include annual growth figures for other countries as well as any progress on issues regarding pollution, sustainability, and NGO groups sprouting up to combat unsustainable practices or social justice issues. Did you know China has the largest growth in environmental and social justice organizations of any country right now? Be careful you don't paint everyone from a particular country in the same color.

When fuel prices are out of control for those countries what will they rely on next? Ohh yeah, alternatives designed by competent nations decades before, nations like Brasil, the U.S., Germany, Iceland, etc. I won't argue that other developing nations won't continue to pollute but is that any reason for us to continue trashing everything just to be cool and have the lastest greatest crap? I've got information for everyone, having the highest GDP does not translate into the healthiest and happiest country. If the economy is not there to secure the health and happiness of a nation what the hell is it good for? lol

 

Well, I don't even know what to say. You start out by saying that OPEC are a great bunch of guys, and that CO2 is food for trees and then go on to talk about how we need to reduce oil imports. OPEC illustrated very nicely in the 70s how they are basically in control of our economy. Thats an unhealthy situation thats if anything worse now than it was then. I've already shown you some of the numbers that illustrate how the CO2 contributions of everyday people like you and I are a significant part of the whole. Its widely agreed upon by people that actually study this sort of stuff for a living that the amount of CO2 we're all putting out is reaching a point where its messing with the earths natural systems.

Of course its not practical for everyone to go out and buy a Prius today, the point of that example was to illustrate how a large number of individuals like you and me making a better choice can have a profound impact on our GHG emissions, air quality, and energy independence. We can't all buy a Prius, and we shouldn't have to. Every American automaker should be offering something just as good. The fact that they are not is bordering on criminal/treasonous in my mind.

I completely agree that EVs etc are the way of the future. But they are not here now, and HEVs and soon PHEVs are. Does that mean we should just sit around and buy SUVs until someone decides to offer us EVs out of the goodness of their hearts? As far as domestic oil production goes you're living in a fantasy world. If we cut off imports and pumped all of our proven reserves out of the ground we'd last ~2 years at our current rate of consumption. If we opened up ANWR we'd last 3 years. Pretty much everything beyond that is peanuts and/or very hard/expensive to recover. We will never approach energy independence until we vastly reduce our rate of consumption. Carpooling and buying a Prius (if you can't walk/bike everywhere) are by far the two biggest things you can do to move us in that direction today.

You might also want to actually spend some time in the places where they pump oil, strip mine coal, refine gasoline, mine and process uranium etc before just dismissing the environmental consequences of those activities.

Since we could all be driving EVs on solar at about 2c per mile and even cheaper on wind based on todays existing technology pretty much everything else seems pretty irrelevant to me. Supporting todays true HEVs is the best way I know to help make sure we get on that path of HEVs, then PHEVs, then BEVs. The alternative is sitting around doing nothing for another 10 years like we did since the first modern production BEVs came out in the late 90s.

Rob

 

oh and just to let you know, much of the air pollution in germany, (when there actually is bad quality- summer is only time when it is such) is NOT from the area. it is from blowing winds from russia, italy as their eco. impact is far lacking compared to britan, sweden, etc....

and, i have a comrade that is a bio engineer from a company, that is working to make a combustion type engine that runs on, biological waste. (rotten eggs, etc if you will)

its a classified project, but this is a german venture, unlike anything else.
as well as a german car company about to release a car that runs on water (you actually fill the gas tank up with h2o). (same premise as future space exploration fueling from moon take-offs)

both are german ventures and both are years advance from anything america or japan can come up with. japanese invested much into the hybrid market and got great sucess with such, but the euros have been looking into ditching petroleom altogether, as it has never been a good source in europe.

 

Ahh, so now your nationalism starts to show through...

 

I was not trying to paint China in a negative light - it is one of my favorite countries in fact and I love to visit and have in the past. The fact of the matter is that these emerging economies NEED oil to grow and to deprive them of it in the name of CO2 emissions is crazy. They should grow as fast as possible. Your statement about health and happiness is true - however not everyone equates high CO2 emissions as an unhappy situation as there are other factors and ways to be clean without limiting CO2 emissions specifically. The people in these "environmental justice" organizations in China are more focused on HORRIBLE situations like mines and power plants that spew soot on towns and destroy lakes and streams...chemical dumping, etc.....not many are that concerned about CO2 in the air especially since it is exhaled by humans anyway. Would you be if you had chemicals in your streams & soot in the air with people digging right under your house for minerals causing it to cave in...? (this happens btw unfortunately)

BTW if you haven't noticed fuel prices ARE out of control. 144 today and likely 150 soon. 200 a barrel is possible by winter.

 

no no no....this is silly! I did not say OPEC is your friend, I said SOME are. JORDAN and the UAE are allies. Check the list of OPEC nations and you'll find many allies. The situation in the 70's is over 40 years old...this is ancient news. Things have changed in Iran and in Saudi Arabia and around the world from Tehran to Saudi ARAMCO to the NYMEX. Completely different reality. OPEC isn't out to kill you and your family, they generally just want to make a buck just like the industries that export from the USA.

Well they are private organizations. GM stock is in the shit and they really are known for making junk cars (see almost any GM car from the 90's save the Typhoon and maybe the C5) the market will take care of GM.

Your estimates are way off the mark. If you opened up more of the the pacific coast, gulf of mexico + florida, and even in the east the oil would flow like water from the largest waterfall - but even MORE FAST!

Lets go on a little trip - we'll visit a few nickel mines on the way back along with a nickel processing facility that may or may not be in compliance with laws in China! We can conclude in Beijing, catch the olympics and eat yummy Peking Duck with plum sauce. Hen hao!

Well the focus needs to be on better batteries and better performing plug in electrics. If you released an electric drivetrain with 200hp/200lb/ft tq with a 200mile range then you could really make some progress. This means more coal and nuclear plants, more drilling to solve needs and calm the market and more efficient homes. (to support the extra strain on our grid)
.
We need to also rebuild our nations infrastructure also...this is not the time to cut off access to our own oil.

 

I agree but can you stop focusing on just CO2 emissions? Very few industries and transportation vehicles release only CO2 during combustion. There are a host of other bad situations that arise from fossil fuel use. I personally do not focus solely on CO2 emission output as if it alone is the devil. Training in watershed ecology and botany shows me that many other chemicals as well as thermal pollution have a terrible effect on life and ecosystem health. We all have these chemicals and soot in our air and watersheds. The levels on average are not as high as China's but they are detectable nonetheless. The environmental groups in China that I have learned about focus on everything from environmental justice situations like you mention to biodiversity losses and habitat destruction/restoration.

Since you truely like China have you watched the BBC episodes: Wild China? Great 6-piece documentary I think you would enjoy.

 

well, as much as i hate to admit it, europe has always been at forefront of technology, health and science, most specifically germany. it is not much of a surprize since our (europe) education system is obviously much better (as is much of asia)

i consider myself a citizen of the EU, not as much of germany (it is important to nationalize the european union, to avoid conflict and make progress)

-however! i will say this, the jugernaut that is german industry and science today, is due to all the money and time, and people invested in rebuilding germany after the US victory in WWII.
i will say its a direct result of america to europe (again germany bearing the most fruit of american help)

the US does not take enough credit for this, and unfortunatly the current generation does not understand this, and as well the current situation with war in middle east, and how lucky the current people in iraq, which is not so different than nazi germany; will be in the future generations. if the middle east can be rid of war hungry destruction madmen and the like, they will in the future have a great area of the world, much like europe now; which has been war torn for thousands of years.

so, despite what you think of the germans, most do care for what you have done, and are thankful, perhaps moreso then the french.

 

No, my point was that if he is going to go on and on about how much he is doing his part to reduce his effects on the environment, why doesn't he also cut down on the amount of time he spends on the track.

I don't think anyone disagrees that the BMW is a decent car. If it didn't have the extremely high NOx emissions, I wouldn't mind driving one myself, as I do enjoy driving myself. BTW, you come across as being very close minded as well - with the opinion that only a German engineered diesel vehicle which can handle cruising at 100+mph speeds for extended periods is a suitable economy car.

Hmm, I guess Europe isn't as "green" as you earlier suggested.

Oooh, that sounds like it's going to be the next Mr. Fusion! It's about time!

Seriously, though - they are very likely just working on ways to convert biological waste to some sort of ethanol. Nothing new, many people worldwide are working on it and it will only take minor changes to your typical gas engine to fully optimize for the fuel.

Hah, you don't actually believe that you'll be able to run a car on water, do you? If you have, you'll have invented the perpetual motion machine.

The only place oil has been a good source is in countries where they are able to produce enough to export. People all over the world are working to reduce oil consumption, not just the Europeans.

 

-my time on the track is SMALL amounts each month. i will not give up my enjoyment- i will not make my life boring like many of you have.

-the 123 does NOT have extremly high nox emissions, they are very mediocre compared to most cares. you are far over exaggerating that, by a huge margin. a corvette has huge nox emissions.... it is a byproduct of high combustion temp.

-im familiar with that movie, and yes- it will be similar.

-italy and russia are developing countrys. but we still have better smog levels than america- by a huge margin!

-der water car. yes, this will run on water. it will be seperated into two seperate atoms the hydro and oxy atoms will be the fuel. the car has this ability on the vehicle. this is how they plan to fuel space craft that launch off the future moon base (they will mine frozen water on the moon for fuel) which btw, is a german company cooworking with america's NASA on space plans.