Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor mats-LA TIMES

I'm not sure I'd want to try the "shifting into neutral" aspect of your proposed test -- no PARTICULAR reason ... I'm just a big wuss at heart! -- but I'm seriously considering doing the "Press-and-Hold-the-Power-Button" test with Mithril -- our '08 / Gen II -- in the near future. I might actually have a chance to do that as early as tomorrow. There's a nice, four-lane / divided stretch of US Highway 52 just a bit south of Lafayette that has VERY little traffic most of the time.

Just a few questions, though:

Has anyone heard of / does anyone know of any "SPECIAL" start-up procedures AFTER stopping the car by depressing the button in such a manner?

Or ... does the car just start up in the "NORMAL" manner AFTER it's been brought to a complete stop in this way?

 

I don't know if there is anything special at all at startup . I would think it would be no different than if we were stopped, but not sure since it is not mentioned in the manual. I would also suggest if your going to try this, why not just try it in a large PARKING LOT, not on the highway, when it's considerable empty???
I was also thinking of doing the very same thing here, in such environment first. Not on the Highway....Just feel safer. On page 155 of the owners Manual it also states to Not place the car in "N" wtih the car moving. There are other references as well on that page that raise a concern, I think I would try the POWER BUTTON approach given those comments. I see you also have a V as I do, so I am going to try the POWER BUTTON option only. If that works I will be satisfied.

 

POWER OFF WHILE RUNNING

Yesterday, before the article was published, I tried the 3 second push on our 2010 on a back street at 20 mph. My first impression was, "Why is it not going off?" and then it shutdown. So I pressed it a second time while the car was still rolling and it went into "AUX" mode ... but did not enable the engine.

The POWER button violates good human engineering principles by being "modal:" (1) short press turns car ON only if P is on and brake pressed, (2) two short presses without brake turns off car into AUX mode, (3) short press turns car OFF if in P, (4) long press turns car OFF.

Opinion

Tuning the car OFF or ON should be consistent and I don't care if it always takes 3 seconds or 1 second. Turning the car ON should only require one additional control, brake.

GOING INTO "N"

I use a ballistics glide, no pedal 'feathering,' when testing "Pulse and Glide" and there is a distinct delay, ~1+ seconds, before it actually goes into "N". It is easy to confuse hitting the mechanical stop with going into "N." For those interested in repeating this, I've used "N" at 65 mph without a problem.

Shifting into "N" is a safe operation with the exception of going down a hill under 46 mph with the engine off and then coasting to a much higher speed. In this rare case, it can induce potentially high voltages and excessive MG1 rpm beyond the design limits.

Opinion

Provide additional feedback when a gear selection is changed. A 'click', not a 'beep', would work for me. This allows gear changes without having to look down at the gear selector.

BRAKE REMOVES POWER

Application of the accelerator, brake and "D" is used for a forced charge. Other than trying to shave a 10th of a second off of a quick start, I've always felt uneasy that lifting off the brake would shoot forward.

Opinion

I've always felt it made more sense to have forced charge work when the car is in "P." This allows the parking pawl to provide a redundant block to vehicle motion. I have no problem with letting the engine idle increase when in "D", "B" or "R" and the brake is applied but no additional drive power.

REDESIGN ACCELERATOR PEDAL

This is a hard problem that may also require looking at the brake pedals too.

Opinion

Perhaps a lower 'dam' to prevent stuff from sliding up. Perhaps a 'bellows' to keep stuff from sliding behind the brake pedals. It is a hard problem.

Toyota has a hard row to hoe but it is interesting to contrast this with the other "Bell the Hybrid" effort. In this case, there was a well identified death. In the other, we have smoke and mirrors. There have been Prius-pedestrian deaths but none that rise to this level, yet.

Bob Wilson

 

In respons to Bobsprius' post above:

I seriously doubt there are any parking lots in the entire state of Indiana large enough / long enough to allow for the initial accelleration ... then simulating unwanted accelleration ... then holding the button for three seconds ... then waiting to see what happens.

Are there any parking lots that large / long anywhere?

But, in all seriousness, that strech of "52" is quite straight, generally level, and there are often NO vehicles to be seen in either direction ... or ... any vehicles seen might well be on the other side of the divide only. I ain't EVEN gonna' do this unless I have at least half-a-mile of nothing ahead of me or behind me ....

 

Friends believe CHP officer did all he could to avoid crash

By Debbi Baker
Union-Tribune Staff Writer
2:00 a.m. October 18, 2009
CHP Officer Mark Saylor died with family members in a wreck Aug. 28. (Courtesy family)


Mark Saylor, 45; daughter, Mahala, 13; and wife, Cleofe, 45, of Chula Vista were believed to be headed to Mahala's soccer practice when they died in a Santee crash. (Courtesy family)


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The constant second-guessing only added to their grief after losing their friend and fellow highway patrol officer and his family in one horrifying instant. Second-guessing from strangers over what Mark Saylor tried to do to stop a borrowed Lexus speeding down a highway out of his control at an estimated 120 mph.
Saylor and his wife, daughter and brother-in-law died in the fiery August crash where state Route 125 runs into Mission Gorge Road in Santee.
Did Saylor yank up on the accelerator? Did he try to shut off the engine?
“I'm positive he did everything he could do,” said Mike May, who worked alongside Saylor at the San Diego office of the California Highway Patrol.
May and CHP Officer John Concepcion spoke yesterday about their friend, providing the first detailed interviews about Saylor.
Both pointed to the 911 call that Saylor's brother-in-law made seconds before the car hurtled off the road, and remarked at how calm his voice was and how there seemed to be no panic in the car.
“I know his family had all their faith in him that he was doing what he could to stop that car,” May said.
Nearly two weeks after the Aug. 28 crash, a preliminary investigation said the floor mat in the 2009 Lexus ES 350 might have held the accelerator down.
Then, on Sept. 29, Toyota announced its largest recall in U.S. history, involving 3.8 million vehicles in seven makes and models. The company “strongly recommended” that driver's-side floor mats be removed.
Safety experts have said the cause may be harder to determine.
But the second-guessing began immediately, in anonymous online comments on news stories, around water coolers and on the radio.
May and Concepcion said they were hurt by such questioning about their colleague, someone they knew to be a well-trained and experienced high-speed driver. Complete article Friends believe CHP officer did all he could to avoid crash - SignOnSanDiego.com

 

Have the Toyota engineers or independent safety investigators figured out what "protects" non-Toyota cars from doing this? Or are they in fact subject to the same thing because of computer controls?
If other cars don't accellerate like this, there should be a straightforward fix. If they do, maybe there does need to be an industrywide standard shutoff system (like a panic button that would be hard to engage unless you really mean to push it--to prevent accidental shut-off. Or maybe a publicity campaign to make us aware that putting the car into neutral will save you--needs to be drilled into our consciousness--if that will work without losing braking power.

 

The Prius brake booster is independent of the ignition even being turned on. Just open the door in the morning and we hear the noise of the vacuum pump firing up.

Separately, other threads have described the Prius power brakes as being similar to all other power brake systems. When no power assist is available, the brake pedal still pushes directly on the master cylinder to provide hydraulic pressure. Though the driver will have to push much harder, the brakes still function. For normal able-bodied adults, the surprise factor is a bigger issue than the required muscle power.

The first two cars I drove would stall without warning, and immediately lose all power assist. I quickly learned to steer and stop them by pure muscle power alone, and it wasn't intolerable. Car #3 had its brake booster gradually fail, and it was never a hazard. But it was a light car, so it had less need power assist than any modern car.

I've never experienced power boost failure on a car with ABS, so don't know what additional complications that can bring.

On a GenIII, a real test of unassisted braking may not be possible without pulling a fuse or otherwise cutting power to the vacuum booster.

 

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned in these threads is the ability to shift to neutral by pressing the Park button. Wouldn't this be quicker and respond instantly with a single press? All I've read here says it would.

 

Start with a small experiment, 20-25 mph, and try to turn it off. There is always time to add speed or other operations. Small experiments make small mistakes.

Bob Wilson

 

It very well might but it is going to take someone with bigger cajones than I have to push the park button on their Prius while going 60mph.

 

This thread has some others testing the emergency shutoff procedure. http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-iii...0170-stopping-hybrid-system-in-emergency.html

 

This entire article is a rehash of everything that's already been known and discussed ever since the accident happened. I'd call it pot-stirring. There's nothing new in the article.

The article correctly notes that nothing can be determined until the CHP and the NHTSA complete their investigations.

That Gomez story though is really suspect though IMO. He drove 20 miles( ! ) out of control? Again the investigations will have more reliable information.

 

The problem is nearly industry-wide. One of the various links here says:

"Records from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration show about 24,000 consumer complaints regarding SUA in the past 10 years, involving almost every major manufacturer."

 

I tend to agree with you; this Front Page LA times story smacks of the recent "boy in a runaway balloon" mindset, and a rush to be first with a story of potential human tragedy that looks like it may be a hoax.
The real reason for the San Diego Lexus accident has YET to be determined .... all the current chatter is based on pure speculation referencing prior incidents that may or may not apply.

Also the Lexus incident in question was AFAIK not a hybrid, so proposed solutions re the Prius may or may not apply.

 

I know the majority of people in this forum are obviously Prius supporters and thus supporters of Toyota. However I feel we have to be careful not to let that cloud our judgement. I see too many "I don't believe it's a problem" or "It was probably the operators fault" responses.

The head of Toyota himself has expressed remorse and regret, apologized and aknowledges that mistakes were made, I think that's the least we can do as well.

After reading many interesting responses, I think the surest, safest idea involves a redesign and inclusion of a separate emergency button.

I feel this because I think the tragedy happens when people panic. So changing the behavior of existing buttons or the car itself might not lead to the outcome we want. I think Toyota needs to do two things. Do the best they can in ensuring that the floormats in their vehicles attach securely and it is very difficult or near to impossible for them to interfere with pedal operation. I think Toyota has done this and I'd bet future vehicles do have some different, higher level of floormat attachment, floormat and/or pedal redesign.

The other thing I think Toyota needs to do and I think this is the more debatable idea is provide a separate panic emergency stop/shutdown button. It needs to be a clearly defined and explained button in an accesible area that drivers can simply push in a panic or run-away situation. I think it needs to be a button designed ONLY to be used in an emergency situation. It shouldn't be in an area where it could easily be pressed by accident, but also I think it's operation should be reversible by pressing the power button "if" someone did accidently press it.

If you create a separate button, then you divorce yourself from all the minutia of problems that can be created in changing how existing buttons work. Plus specifically for run-away scenarios, if people are informed of a single button, a single action they should use in that scenario, I think it facilitates and supports the potential for a better outcome even in a highly stressed panic situation.

Also, I actually admire some of you planning these self-created "run-away" tests. But obviously BE CAREFUL. In in effort to gain information I don't want to hear in here, or in the media that somebody got hurt or killed. I know it won't stop a lot of you, but there are professionals and professional institutions that should be doing this testing for us, it shouldn't be owners of the vehicles trying to find out how there vehicle might behave on deserted roads or empty highways.

Just be careful guys.

 

Do any of you remember the Audi 5000, well back about 25 to 30 years ago Audi had this problem big time. I don't know how it was ever resolved because I sold (traded)my Audi at a big loss. The customers may in some cases be lying and floor mats are always the first to get the blame. Audi owners lost a lot of money on trade in value and Audi lost a lot of customers. In some cases it was even proven that people accidentally pushed the accelerator to the floor to stop instead of the brake by accident of course. In fact 60 minutes did a report on it and after it was televised no body wanted to buy an Audi for a while, well I exaggerate some here on that point but you get the idea. Audi kelly blue book values fell over night right after.

I dont mean to sound disingenuous but I do believe a lot but not all of the incidents are due to idiots making a mistake, however I believe a few of the occurrences are actually legit very few though. I am a retired mechanical engineer and I wil go on record saying IMO that the floor mat thing is just a smoke screen to help keep the public at bay in order to scramble and hopefully figure out what is really going on.

I have an 07 Prius and I use the all weather matt all year around and even without the clips, the foot rest should not let the pad creep forward. He with the clips I have a hell of a time getting them out to clean them, they don't move.

Anyway I hope this doesn't get ugly, I have a 2010 Prius on order and now allocated andI still want it in fact I hope it comes in quickly so I don't loose on my trade in because of all this BS. I know that once I get my new one it will all have blown over before I am ready to trade it in.

Oh I agree all you helpful testers should not be doing this as it is not safe and you might become the next negative static, not to mention you might no be around to read the news of your own demise. You don't have a Lexus 350 or a Carolla so your results are not valid anyway.

Just my 2 cents.

 

All of these unintended acceleration people report the "gas pedal going to the floor on it's own" or something to that effect.... All of these cars are drive by wire, so that's just not possible unless: 1> The spring on the pedal is broken, and that would be easy to tell because it's wouldn't suddenly fix itself... Or... 2> Something was pushing the pedal down or keeping it down. (Like a floor mat or a foot)

The gas pedal on the Prius or the new Lexuses cannot move unless something pushes on it. Plain and simple.

I read a bunch of complaints of this issue, and this was a commonality. Some suspected it was the cruise control -- but again they were thinking of the old days where the cruise control actually activated on the physical throttle linkage. (Causing the pedal to move)

It sucks Toyota developed a pedal that is close enough to the floor to get caught up on mats, and the pedal itself doesn't pivot. (Like my Mazda Protege's pedal... if had a pivot built into it, so if it got caught on something, it could just tilt out of the way as the pedal moved upwards.)

 

In my case, my doubt has absolutely nothing to do with being an avid supporter of Toyota or the Prius - I'm just an engineer that looks at the world with an eye for what is believable and what is not. And in answer to the post above, I don't doubt for one moment that the second guessing offended, bothered, upset, whatever, the persons being second guessed. But the fact that they're upset by the second guessing isn't going to stop it. And neither is someone who worked with one of the victims giving us an unsupported "I am sure he did everything he could". That is all meaningless fluff. The facts will be revealed by the investigation, but the reality is, the assertions of the victims' relatives and lawyers are just not convincing. This "highly trained police officer" stuff is just bs. If the guy was so 'highly trained', why didn't he rub some speed off on a guardrail or other barrier? Neutral? Parking/emergency brake? There were so many possible ways he could have avoided a fatal collision, that it just seems nigh on impossible that all of those options became unavailable all at once. Heck, if he was that experienced as a highway patrol guy, he would have known that rollover accidents dissipate energy better than straight on collisions and that if he had to take the hit he was better off spinning the car at speed and letting it roll. Look, all I'm saying is that I'm sure the grieving relatives don't want to accept that maybe the drivers in these cases just choked. But until NHTSA weighs in with the results of their investigation, one has to presume a high likelihood of that possibility... highway patrol officer at the wheel or not. Like highway patrol officers are some sort of infallible heroes who never make a mistake and never have accidents... puhlease. Spare me the hero worship and take a realistic look at the facts. Or just wait for the results of the investigation to be published. Toyota spoke up because they had a PR problem, which they certainly do, but that is hardly evidence of a problem with the vehicle.

 

Thanks for printing all the links including to the article above. Despite Googling, I did not find it: says the brakes may have caught on fire. Given the high speed, could be possible and another article quoted forensic mechanic Forrest Folck: "It's definitely one of the worst accidents I've seen." Folck has investigated more than 6,000 accidents. He said a jammed accelerator is highly unlikely but can happen, especially in newer-model vehicles using cruise control."

Thus, unless one is willing to set up and conduct a test replicating the exact vehicle and circumstances, seems best to reserve judgement until all tests are complete and/or the next event occurs.

As for the earlier post about not buying it...and people looking for a quick buck, there are lots but this would not be the scenario to attempt such a plan. Not to mention, he was in a dealer loaner car, and nothing has come out to show that he wanted to end his own life (not to mention his families) because he was depressed, financial difficulty, etc.

In 1984, I started my first job after college in a Ford EXP two seater (model only was sold a few years). About once a week during my commute to work in Atlanta (traffic nightmare - people run over you if you were driving speed limit), the engine would stop/go dead/etc. While I as on the highway driving 55 to 70 miles an hour. I would have to re-start the key in the ignition "in flight." The first couple of times it was a very harrowing experience but unfortunately I got used to it.

Over the next two years I took it to several dealers, regional managers were called in, etc. But they could never reproduce the event when they test drove it on the highway (since of course they were not going to test drive it all day, every day until the event occurred). They also inferred it was "me" and operator error. I never had the "error" in any of the other cars, trucks, or SUVs I owned prior (1) or after (8).

So finally when I had saved up enough money, I traded the car for a Honda Accord at a dealer that was owned by a company that also owned a Ford dealer. Of course the dealer had no idea about the car's "issues" when they inspected since according to Ford "they did not exist." So I drove off feeling relieved but did wonder what the future held for the next owner.