Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor mats-LA TIMES

FYI: (Front-wheel drive car) + (E-brake that tightens only the rear drum brakes {as is the case on my Corolla}) = car continues forward, while dragging rear wheels in a skid. The front wheels, with static friction, have more traction than the skidding rear wheels. Although I have never tested this exact situation, I have used my E-brake before, more than once, and I am 100% positive that it only applies pressure to the rear drum brakes.
(just something to think about)
By now, I think we are all on consensus that shifting into neutral is the best option. Next time you are rolling at 10mph down your residential street, shift into neutral (practice/preparation) to be sure you know what to do in the event that your life would depend upon it.

Exactly. It's statistics. If you produce two million of anything, a few will have flaws. If the NHTSA receives five reports of stuck Camry accelerators in the month of October, the look into the problem. Toyota grabs the blue prints, NHTSA forensics grabs the wrecked cars, and they sit down and see if there is a systematic flaw that needs to be addressed. If there is no systematic flaw, then perhaps it's just statistics.

"Toyota. Not only are we environmentally friendly, but we have unicorns!"
How many times has a computer "froze" or "crashed" throughout history? More than you can possibly count? Do you like the idea of your car being run by a high-tech computer while you are doing 85mph on the freeway?

Just out of curiosity, if you are driving a pure-electric vehicle, what do you do if the accelerator gets stuck? Cut the fuel to the engine?... I sure hope they have independent emergency power shut offs that physically disengage the wiring between the motor and battery. (if you ever watch auto racing, all drivers have a switch on the dash that physically shuts an emergency valve on the fuel line)

 

i've done about every damn near stupid thing you can do with and in a car, motorcycle and truck ... and from that springs the experience of what to do in a crisis

if you're putzing around with the "parking" brake in a real emergency, versus a parking emergency, you're in deep feces




of my numerous stupid runaway car experiences, just for spits and gargles, here's my two most teachable moments

a buddy wanted to buy a first gen bronco, i had one, he solicited my assistance, and also asked to take mine for a spin
mine was trick, too trick, no top or doors or tailgate, fiberglass hood, fuel cell, composite seats, no other interior ... worked 302 HO 3spd 9" rear
off we go ... after wheelie-ing into second, i notice the throttle is stuck at WOT ... my buddy is in abject terror, the accelerator pedal is useless

clutch in, ignition off, shift to neutral and brake to stop
get out, pop hood, adjust throttle/carb linkage, monkey with return spring, fire her back up ... too late, my buddy has already taken off running ​

replace the stock bars and custom bar end mirrors on my kawasaki Zrx1200r with superbike bars, refit grips and control, afix new crg mirrors ... give throttle a squirt of silicone and head up PCH

heading up PCH, roll through the gears quickly, giving it lots of go juice, third gear, the throttle is stuck at WOT, the front wheel is coming up, lord knows how fast i'm going but things are happening fast ... pull clutch, hit the kill switch, shift to neutral, coast to the curb, brake, stop ... realize throttle grip is getting hung up on the mirror bracket ... ouch​

fortunately both vehicles were manual transmissions, and there was a manual clutch to monkey with, no ignition lock to worry about BUT in both instances we're talking about super high performance vehicles and things are happening at lightning fast speed ...

lesson, have a plan BEFORE everything goes wrong, rather than try to figure it out when it's happening

fail to plan and you've planned to fail


while the two particular instances and vehicles i mention are both super high performance vehicles, they afford virtually full user control, and unlike an almost completely automated Prius, they don't do any "thinking" for you, and so you have a great deal of control over all the systems and plenty of fail-safe options ... but things are happening waaaaay too fast

in the Prius, where things will happen slower, you still have to figure out your evasive tactics, your fail-safes, imagine what can go wrong, and have a practiced plan to handle it ...

i've hit every button switch and lever in my Prius cockpit :thumb:

i suggest y'all do the same

if all else fails ... it's unicorn time

 

If the computer crashed or froze - stopped running the program - the car would stop, on pretty much any modern car. The engine computer is completely responsible for sending the signals to the injectors to inject fuel and to the spark plugs to ignite it. No computer, no fuel, no spark. At worst it might leave one of the injectors on, which would waste a lot of fuel and flood the engine.

Any car with fuel injection has an engine management computer. If you don't like the idea of your car being run by a computer, go and find an old one with carburetion.

 

And then we can see which is more likely to fail: the computer or the mechanical parts.

Tom

 

My money is on the mechanical failing first. Damn throttle linkages and return springs are the devil!

 

Not necessarily. In fact, probably not. "What happens" is very dependent on both the architecture of the computer, and on the operating system, both of which are vastly different than the common PCs or Macs that we are familiar with.

The engine controller should have a somewhat fault-tolerant system where numerous possible failures that would result in a Blue Screen of Death on a PC would be more tightly contained on the engine controller, leaving the propulsion system in a basic low performance "limp home" mode.

 

Correct. A catastrophic failure, such as a complete loss of electrical power, would result in a dead engine and motors as described in the previous post. Anything short of a catastrophic failure the system will attempt to keep things limping along. Typically we design control systems to fail in a safe manner. One example of this is a "watchdog" timer which must be periodically reset by the running program. If the program hangs up, the watchdog doesn't get reset. It times out and reboots the control computer. It's not a desirable mode, but it beats the Blue Screen of Death.

Tom

 

As one might expect, 'landshark' sighted:

Class action suit filed against Toyota over sudden acceleration claims — Autoblog

Bob Wilson

 

I did it today coming to work in normal traffic at 65 mph in a 2008 Highlander. I bumped the shifter from D to N and it worked as indicated. Tach zoomed from 2000 to ~5000 then I let off the pedal and it dropped back to 2000 then I put my foot into it again and it zoomed up to 5000 but no higher.

The vehicle began slowing down but there was no sudden anything. It was very much like 'glide' in my Prius but the wheels were definitely disconnected from the throttle inputs. Now if I hadn't thought to do this first and had stood on the brakes at WOT and glazed over the pads I think that even in N I might have had a looooonnnng way to stop...essentially when surface friction and gravity stopped me.

 

I wanted to see what to do if the car were to accelerate uncontrollably...so I could tell my wife what to do. The Prius is her main driving car. I figure it could be a life and death thing to know what to do ahead of time. Our kids' lives could be at stake too.

I was brainstorming about what to do if it happened...I'm wondering:

What would happen if the situation occurs, and you have a smart key system, and you throw the keys out the window? Would engaging the parking break help at all?

The info here in this thread has been useful. Could the moderators make a sticky thread of the exact steps to do in the event of uncontrollable acceleration? It just might save someone's life.

 

No effect. But if you'll finally shift into "neutral," you'll have a nice walk back to try and find your keys.

No because it only engages the rear wheel brakes and at best, the rear tires will lock up. More likely, a lot of smoke and no stopping. After destroying the rear brakes and tires and nothing is working, the driver may shift into "neutral" and then come to a stop ... the rear wheels and probably the tires will have to be replaced.

There is a pattern:

Shift into Neutral
to save your life.
​

Please print this out and duct tape it to the sun visor so you can read it by just glancing up. Duct tape is used because it looks horrible and sticks to everything. Alternatively, put it on a 3x5 card and duct tape it so it hangs over the power button. This will remind the driver what to do before starting the car.

Bob Wilson

 

it's already all here ... put your car in Neutral or hit the Park button, which accomplishes the same thing ... driver's choice

in fact, if you FLOOR the accelerator in your Prius and slap it into Neutral without lifting your foot, not only is the transmission disengaged, but so is the accelerator ...

happy motoring :thumb:

 

It's nice to know that this will give the lawyers something to do. I think that a lot of folks are looking for someone to blame an accident on.
I will take my chances with my Prius/computer any old time. So many of these people believe they did nothing wrong and therefore something must have failed. People don't always realize they contributed to an incident, that they did hit the gas instead of the brake, that your heels got stuck up there and cause acceleration. I watched an older woman with a large old car run into another vehicle while trying to park. She actually moved to vehicle she hit. She realized she could not "fit" into the spot and backed out and drove off to another area of the lot. She had no idea that she had hit a car.
If the vehicles have been checked and tested by the experts and they were unable to reproduce acceleration then I am more willing to believe the experts.

Thanks again to all of you who are out there testing out putting your vehicles into neutral and hitting power buttons while moving. You guys are awesome.

 

In the 2nd (LA Times) article only the doctor admitted to shifting to neutral.

Where is this sudden uncontrolled acceleration when the guys on the track need it?

I figure it takes holding the shifter in neutral for 1.5 seconds to shift from drive when the car is moving.

Find an empty parking lot & practice. There are plenty around here.

 

That would be true if ONE cpu ran the whole car. It does not. There are multiple CPU's doing different jobs.

The following could all be separate subsystems with their own cpu's and programs:
Battery management computer
Engine management computer
Motor management computer
Displays inside of the car
etc

I do trust electronic controls and drive by wire more then mechanical systems. Both can fail but we have seen through time that mechanical systems fail more often.

 

Wow luckily for me I use neutral like every 3 minutes in my commute when I'm hypermiling. Shifting to it is like second nature to me now

 

I did it tonight with a different vehicle. This time it was a 2007 Prius Pckg #6. 55 MPH on the main drag along the Outer Banks in normal traffic. I pulled the shift lever over to N and it immediately went into a dead coast. All power was disconnected from the wheels.

As the ad says..."Just Do It"

 

at over 2 mph, it's instantaneous, there is no delay
whether you shift to N, R or hit the Park button, the car immediately goes to Neutral ...

there's no three second delay, there's no two second delay, there's no one second delay

it's sudden and immediate ... no power to the drivetrain

 

It's so easy a caveman can do it....

 

... on your GenII models.

As discussed repeatedly, GenIII does not shift immediately to N, it does have a delay.