Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor mats-LA TIMES

Totally agree. It is convenient to jump on the band wagon at this point in time. I still cannot believe this accident has caused this level of agitation.

 

The CHP was pushing this from the very start so I'm not surprised. They put all their chips on this guy before they knew what happened, producing a lynch mob mentality. It was damned irresponsible and unprofessional of them. And it has turned out that they were wrong.

 

Reality check- your opinion does not make this any less true. Not sure why you do not believe the people in this report. It seems to me that you are saying if it did not happen to you or someone you know it did not happen. IMO, the fact that no one on this site (including myself) reported having experienced this problem does not diminish the validity of what happened to these people.

 

I was a skeptic too ... until a surging Prius ran over my unicorn.

 

Quadruple reality check for you: these "unintended acceleration" reports RARELY pan out as a systematic vehicle problem. You've got a better chance buying lotto tickets.

The burden of proof here is on those claiming it is a vehicle problem. Since their star case is one that the neutral investingating body indicates was a floormat problem you don't have much room to maneuver.

 

Thanks for the video, I found that very interesting. What I was not sure on is how hard the driver was pressing on the brake during full throttle. But if the cars brakes were not able to overpower the engine at full throttle, that concerns me that either the brakes are not powerful enough, or the software just doesn't allow it to happen.

On that note, I did NOT like the fact that when he pumped the brakes during full throttle, it essentially put the ABS system into a condition where the brakes no longer did anything. I consider that a VERY very bad bit of programming, why would Toyota do that? Am I missing something here? Did the engineers not think of it or consider this set of events important?

The VW system was far better, even at full throttle just slam on the brakes and the car stops very quickly. How did Toyota not see fit to implement such a system? And I have to reiterate, the failure of the brakes to overpower the engine is very concerning to me. This should never happen.

edit - it's not an ABS issue it's the fact that the brake booster runs out of vacuum when the engine is at full throttle.

 

To which star case and neutral investigating body are you referring?

I don't yet see any neutral investigating body report indicating a cause of the Lexus ES350 crash in San Diego involving the CHP officer and family.

A NHTSA engineer wrote a Vehicle and Crash Site Inspection report for this incident. It did not investigate or draw conclusions on root cause.

Separately, NHTSA has denied a petition requesting investigation of a February incident, as it has plenty of material investigating earlier cases and anticipates nothing new in this one. This filing has no connect whatsoever with the San Diego case.

The burden of proof is on those claiming a problem. But the opposition is putting great effort into convicting and executing the accused before the investigators can make their official findings.

 

I appreciate your reality check is opinion and not fact. I have no reason not to believe these people. Do you have additional information which is not in the report? Do you have some reason you doubt these people's testimony? What you may or may not know about other reports has nothing to do with the experience these people had.

 

i have a reason

i choose not to believe things that have never happened until they actually happen and they have not happened

when it actually happens, then i will believe it, and give credence to reports of it happening

until then ... no


oh, and the notion that a major automobile manufacturer would cover up this problem is preposterous

the consequences of covering up such a mess far outweigh the consequences of investigating, admitting and curing the problem

we all love a good conspiracy, but these dots don't connect

next

 

Neither you nor I know if any of these are true or not. You can believe them if you wish but until I see real data from an impartial source I'm skeptical.

The question is 'What happened?'. The reports to which you refer have no factual basis and no data to support them. Essentially they're hearsay.

 

I believe that soon every vehicle on the road here will have the smart pedal technology. That should put to rest all these issues.

 

Its amazing I survived my youth driving a 400 cubic inch V8, drum brakes and a mechanical throttle linkage.

 

ABS does contribute the the problem in one way. We all know braking turns kinetic energy into heat energy. Prior to ABS if you totally locked the brakes and allowed the car to skid it transferred the heat energy to the tires. The brakes themselves would not heat up. Once the wheels lock you will stop quickly and the open throttle will have no effect This is where the common belief that brakes can always overcome throttle came from. It used to be correct Of course you needed clearance straight on front of you because that's the direction you are going to go.

The refusal of ABS to allow a wheel to lock makes the situation of a WOT much more difficult because all the heat goes to the brakes as the discs slide over the rotors continuously at maximum allowed pressure.

 

Who is the genious who came up with push button start? I already put the key in, I already turned the key. What they heck do they need to add another step for?????????? Now I have to push a button? What's next??????? Where there be a second button? A third? What ever happened to just putting the key in and turning it?
(I think I am going to keep my Corolla for a loooooooooong time. It is VERY simple and basic, intuitive, and straight-forward, and at 120K miles right now, still drives like it was brand new. Also, it is VERY easy to shift into neutral, and back out of neutral while driving. The Prius doesn't allow the driver to do this (which compromises safety)).

A huge deal-breaker for me in the 2010 Prius is the fact that you can't just shift into neutral and back to drive. In my Corolla, I shift into neutral and back into drive constantly while driving, every time I come to a coast in a parking lot or at a red light. When I was test driving the Prius, I shifted into neutral when I had come to a coast while waiting for a stop light. When it turned green, I went to shift back into drive, but it wouldn't!!! The salesman said, "you have to come to a complete stop." In order to stop, the traffic behind me had to brake hard and stop also. I told the salesman that was a huge safety issue and a deal breaker for me. Sorry. I'll keep my 2004 Corolla until the Prius designers stop fooling around with fancy gadgets and put function before fashion. They can start with eliminating the "start" button and fixing the ability for the car to shift freely between neutral and drive.

I hope the CHP officers boycott Toyota. Why do I say such harsh words? Because SAFETY should ALWAYS come FIRST!
(by the way, in my Corolla, the hooks on the floor mats are so good, it takes me about a whole minute to unhook them when I clean them. Excellent job Toyota ... in 2004)

I want to buy a 2011 Prius. I desperately want one. BUT, I will NOT compromise safety! The ball is in Toyota's court.

 

Who actually inserts the key FOB into the slot to turn on their Prius? Since there is no ignition to turn, my keys stay in my pocket. The only time they ever leave my pocket is to unluck the front door to my apartment.

You don't want to put the Prius in neutral to try and achieve better milage. You don't gain anything in terms of fuel efficiency by doing so every time you come to a stop.

My 2005 Prius has floormat hooks and just like yours, the floormats are difficult to remove even when you WANT to. My roomate has a 2004 Corolla.

 

Okay. You typed some good replies. I like it. How do you turn the engine off if the accelerator gets stuck then? Do you open the door and jump out? (hahahaha. Sorry, I had to make the joke on that one).
Serious question: If you want to cut the engine&motor while driving, if you push the start button will it turn off the engine/motor? (imagine the same scenario as the CHP driver in the Lexus). Has anyone tested this? (Yes, the first thing a driver should do is shift into neutral, but if the accelerator is stuck, you are eventually going to want to kill the engine also)

Anyhow, I like to coast. I love the feeling of a disengaged transmission and my car just rolling. I just love that feeling of knowing the car is rolling down the street with no engine or motor coupled to it. Remember the article about a year or two ago of the guy with the Honda Accord who used to coast down his driveway and down his street and down the road with the engine turned off? I don't turn my engine off, but I love to just coast when it's safe to do so. I wish the Prius allowed that.

(note: I just noticed from a Google image that the newer, current Corolla also allows the driver to effortlessly switch between drive and neutral while driving. Also note: there is no need for the driver to match rpms; the car's computer automatically shifts into the proper gear based on the car's speed - just shift from neutral back to drive and the computer does the math. Over the 120K miles that I've had my corolla, I've done this probably over 10,000 times, and never once have I had a problem)

 

I was gonna answer but I couldn't quite articulate the procedure for tuck & roll so you minimize roadrash! Hahaha

I have had no reason to try that yet because a throttle sticking has only occured once in the entire I've been racing and modifying vehicles and that was on a 1972 Chevelle when the throttle linkage hung up on the air cleaner lid. Standing on the brakes brought my to a slow stop and thankfully the throttle released before I had to stick it in neutral. They didn't have computer controlled rev limiters like they do now.

You can do the exact same thing in the Prius unless you are in warm up mode or have the AC/Heater on full blast. You can either put it in neutral OR simply let off the throttle then lightly reapply a little bit of pressure to disengage the regenerative braking and you will coast or as we call it, glide. You can go pretty damn far just gliding and after a few tries gliding becomes second nature and is easier than shifting in and out of neutral. I wish you were closer so I could take you for a ride and show you how it works. Then you could volunteer for my organization too.

 

? ? ? ? ? ?

My 2010 Prius must be broken. I did this a number of times, without problem and without stopping, before learning that it is a bad idea because of the risk of overspinning MG1 above 45 ?? mph.

Time to go back and do more tests.

As F8L points out, Neutral gains nothing on the Prius. Unlike a traditional transmission, mechanically there is nothing in the Prius that can be disengaged. The only disengagement is electrical, shutting off the motor and generator functions. If the wheels turn, MG1 must still spin as dead weight at whatever speed it is forced by the MG2 (wheel) and ICE shafts of the HSD.

Engine on, this is a common element of intermediate hypermiling with manual transmissions. Engine off, advanced hypermiling. I regularly use the former in my older car.

If you want to eliminate Prius's small 'fake engine drag' when coasting, just press the gas pedal slightly until the bar on the HSI display vanishes. The desired point is sticky, it will snap to that condition if you get and stay close, so precision dexterity on the pedal is not required.

 

Did you read any of the previous posts? I've lost count of the number of posts that explain how to stop a Prius in an emergency. Any of the following will stop power to the drive wheels:

1) Press the Power button and hold for three seconds,

or

2) Move the shifter to N and hold for a second,

or

3) Press Park.

Any of those will work.

Tom

 

Not me. My Prius fob never comes out of my pocket, except when I put my keys away at night.

Tom