Toyota's Next PR Nightmare: Prius Brakes

I have had a number of cars and none of them, except my Gen II Prius experienced brake loss for such an extended period of time over simple bumps on a dry road.

Toyota has even admitted and described the problem for the Gen III - while Toyota is only admitting a problem on the Gen III, we all here on the board know it is a long-standing issue with the Gen II also.:

"Without issuing a recall of its iconic Prius hybrid vehicles, Toyota said Thursday a software glitch is to blame for braking problems in the 2010 model...Toyota officials described the problem as a "disconnect" in the vehicle's complex anti-lock brake system (ABS) that causes less than a one-second lag. With the delay, a vehicle going 60 mph will have traveled nearly another 90 feet before the brakes begin to take hold."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/02/04/japan.prius.complaints/index.html

Personally, I find whooshing along for 90 feet with no braking to be a "malfunction," not a "feature." If all manufacturer's anti-lock brakes did this, I guess we could blame the government for mandating anti-lock brakes. But they don't. Whether you believe you could brake better because of driver skill without the antilock feature or not is missing the point: the Prius antilock system exhibits characteristics different from those on other manufacturer's cars. If this difference results in poorer braking under some conditions, then I find that to be a design flaw, whether it has caused me personally to have an accident or not, and whether or not I am able to alter my driving and braking style to compensate for the issue (which I have).

The flip side of this same software glitch is the inability to move on slippery surfaces due to the traction control (it's the same programming that runs both). However, this particular "feature" is not in the news because it is not considered a safety issue (it is doubtful that not being able to get the car going will cause an accident under most conditions).

I actually like my Prius and have no issues with Toyota. However, no matter how much you love the mother company, there are facts that affect our ownership:

1) There is a known issue, admitted by Toyota, that has not been dealt with.
2) This issue could be a safety issue.
3) The poor handling of these issues (for both Prius and other Toyotas) in the last week or so has killed the resale of our cars, temporarily if not forever (it remains to be seen). Has anyone else tried to trade off their Prius at a non-Toyota dealership this week? I have, and dealerships are reluctant to even take any Toyota on trade right now. The Smart dealership refused to even quote a trade value, while a couple of other places offered thousands less than wholesale. Note I did this more as an experiment than as an attempt to get rid of my Prius.

This whole thing could actually force Toyota USA into bankruptcy. The lawsuits are just beginning to fly. Toyota Japan has no real concept of what Americans will do with the way they dealt with this. Probably shutting down production for the throttle issue in Japan would have been the right solution for the Japanese - they would have seen it as a good faith effort to fix things. Americans see this differently, and are out for blood. The next few weeks will be extremely interesting. When Toyota problems lead the news on NPR for more than a couple of days, this is a real media event with a lot of momentum. How it will affect us owners in the long run is anyone's guess, but I can't see a positive outcome no matter what they do.

 

Toyota must acknowledge that this braking issue occurs on the gen 2 as well. If not, they are not being honest.

 

I like the Finland driving test - they test skidding and night time driving.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_licence_in_Finland]Driving licence in Finland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

Driving tests should include congested highways, nightime, skidding and snow. They should all be conducted in January in Montana, after a snowstorm at 4am.

 

Yeah, that should really scare off the neophytes!!

 

I hate to say this, but Toyota did have all this coming to them.

 

Can you predict the future too, but hate doing it?

 

I don't drive a Toyota, but if I were in the new car market today, it would still be a Prius. If anything, this could be the perfect time to get a good deal on one.

Washington Post reported the NHTSA (sp) looked into this in 2007 and dismissed it, so the Feds could take some of the blame.

If I were on the Chevy Volt team, there is no way to take comfort in this - they could easily have this kind of PR next year, simply because of the breaking technologies introduced.

 

I agree totally, I have never had a problem in city or highway because I leave plenty of space. If a slowdown or stop is indicated my right foot is at the very least resting on the brake pedal. Which means Prius is already slowing down. I have experienced no delay BECAUSE my foot has already been on the brake pedal for some seconds. I have used this procedure on non hybrid cars as well, and never had any close calls. It's not the car or its systems, its the operator 99% of the time.

 

Please explain that remark.

 

I purchased a pre-owned 2006 Prius last June with extended warranty and noticed this issue in the first month. I wasn't comfortable with it at the time b/c PriusChat veterans said "it's OK, the brakes just work that way". Now I'm not standing outside the car measuring skid when this happens and I am not conducting a safety study. I trusted Toyota to do that. But it feels to me like the brakes simply stop working for up to .5 second when hitting certain types of bumpy road, and I mean mildly bumpy. It happens 1-3 times/week and the ABS light always lights during this time. I don't believe the wheels are "in the air" at the time and it's caused more than a couple of frightening moments when there is a car in front of me I'm braking for.

I don't believe I'm an aggressive driver, though being a Bostonian, perhaps my opinion is not objective.

This issue being raised at this time as something that Toyota ostensibly "fixed in January 2010 ", though very depressing news for us current owners, is much-appreciated validation that I wasn't crazy to think something was wrong. Just because the Prius contains new technology does not mean that unsafe or, as importantly, unsafe-feeling mechanisms should be tolerated as functioning "as designed".

 

NEWSFLASH: Gen II Prius brakes may be the subject of a recall - Early Priuses may have braking issues - Autos- msnbc.com

It is going to get worse before it gets better....

 

I hope the Gen II braking issue does get addressed. I'd love to not have to let up on the brake to pass over a pothole or bump as I slow down.

 

Don't hold your breath waiting for Toyota - there has been a whole lot of silence from the boys and girls on the Toyota team regarding Gen II brake issues (other than the denial merchants on PC). One could argue they are waiting for it to all blow over.

I wonder what will be asked of Toyota in the congressional hearings?

I guess there could be another snow emergency.

 

While there is some risk of rear-ending someone in front of you when the brakes drop out, a greater risk is not being able to stop if you encounter someone running the intersection and getting t-boned. 4, 8, or12 feet (lost stopping ability due to drop-out depending on duration of drop-out) can make a difference between being t-boned and avoiding the accident. It happened to me recently, except I was driving the BMW 3er and there was no drop-out; the car just stopped like it was supposed to and I was able to avoid the car running the intersection. Fortunately, no one was behind me in a Prius. Otherwise, I might have gotten rear-ended.

 

More likely, you would not. We already know the brake pause is a rare, intermittent condition that requires a combination of poor road surface, low-speed, and failure to press the brake harder. After getting the A0B update to the skid controller, our 2010 Prius won't replicate the intermittent brake pause. As for the earlier, NHW20 model, we're working on getting some metrics. Our older NHW11 has not exhibited this behavior in my testing.

Bob Wilson

 

On our 2005 that we traded for the 2010, this braking behaviour was very rare and was not something either my wife or I were that alarmed about. The "pause" was even less than what I experienced in the 2010 before SSC-A0B (which now seems gone).

I suppose with all of the "feeding fenzy" going on with Toyota now they may be forced to do a software update/recall on the G2 Prius but I don't know. I do think they need to address those customers who are concerned about this and not just remain silent. I would hope it could be handled by a service campaign for those who want their brake software changed but we'll have to see.

 

I think the thread title was regarding Gen II Prius brake systems. There have been a number of owners of Gen II Prius cars who have reported the brake drop-out in their cars and there have been threads about this topic dating back to at least 2007. The issue exists for Gen II owners. Toyota is not helping themselves or the owners of the affected cars with their silence on the matter.

I would be curious to learn the results of your research into the brake system drop-out on the Gen II Prius (I have a certain vested interest - I still own my 2007 Touring edition). Not trying to pressure you, but any idea of when you would have something to share?