Featured Toyota's Anti-Electric Car Marketing Scam Gets Banned In Norway

I assure you my only agenda within this thread was to communicate my opinion, which people are always free to agree, disagree, ignore, or be indifferent about.
For me? This is Prius Chat...not Prius Crusade.
As far as my being a troll or trolling Prius Chat?
I've been here a decade. I'll let the diversity of my participation speak for itself. I don't know if I'm on anyone else's ignore list. But nobody in over 10 years has ever accused me of being a Prius Chat Troll.
I would suggest, that if you post an opinion in an open forum, you should be prepared to discover some people might not agree with you.

IF at some future date, it's revealed that Toyota openly tried to scam and defraud the entire country of Norway by telling them you don't need to plug in a Hybrid vehicle and/or that you can drive a long way on a tank of gas and a battery with a Hybrid? I'll be the first one to apologize and re-evaluate my opinion.

Until then?
All it is, is my opinion.

 

Please! Check my math and tell me where I am wrong (on the cost per mile of a Tesla vs ICE car).

So you are just going from "what you were told" from one guy...but you don't believe what I told you? And I gave you all the math and number to back it up.
Sorry, but it is pretty much well established that fuel costs for EVs are cheaper than gas for the average prices in most every US location.
If you think this is wrong then show your numbers and assumptions.

Mike

 

My last out-of-town trip:

1345 miles, all gas. Total cost: $77.00. $0.057 per mile.
Tesla Model 3 on the open highway: 3.5 miles/kWh (optimistically). Supercharger average rate: $0.24/kWh. 1,345 miles / 3.5 miles/kWh = 384kWh. 384kWh * $0.24/kWh = $92.22, $0.069 per mile.

My Prime in-town: 5 miles/kWh, Model 3: 4-4.5 miles/kWh. No matter the electricity cost, I'll pay less because I use less.

 

Don’t have to. The one thing EVs, PHEVs, and Hybrids all have in common is regenerative braking. I could arguably say that the BMW i3 with REX has one of the most aggressive regen braking systems and if you don’t believe me ask @bwilson4web. He’s driven every type of Prius and the BMW i3. Would you label the BMW i3 a self charging hybrid?

100% agree.

As do ALL hybrids, PHEVs and EVs if you are talking only about regenerative braking.

Back to the topic, apparently Norway feels otherwise and in their eyes, it sounds like a perpetual motion machine because of Toyota’s specificity about the use of regen braking. In all seriousness I would not think you would be able to fool a Norwegian shopper, who have the highest per capita EV usage, (or us Prius Chatters) but apparently Norway is trying to protect the lowest common denominator, so to speak.




iPad ? Pro

 

If you have to make advertising so even the dumbest person that could possibly see it will not come away with a mistaken impression, you can't make any advertising.

 

Or some other car manufacturers specifically complained about it to their representative.


iPad ? Pro

 

To be fair, what was your mpg so we can compare it to the EPA values.
But first, as I stated before, the Model 3 and Prius aren't really the same class of vehicle...but even so *one* ICE (hybrid) car that beats an EV isn't representative. Generally, EV fuel costs beat ICE costs and I'm sure you know that. Plus, most people will recharge at lower residential prices most of the time and for the first 200-300 miles of any longer trip. Do you count your gas fill ups based on the highest Interstate or out of the way gas station prices you found? or the actual cost you paid?

EPA for the Tesla Model 3 RWD is 24 - 26 kwh per 100 miles or 3.8 to 4.1 depending on the battery size.
My lifetime is ~210 wh/mile or 4.75 miles/kwh so MY cost for your 1345 mile trip would be 283 kwh * 0.24 = $67.95, $0.051 per mile

Mike

 

54.9 over that distance.

Sure they are.

This is Prius Chat, isn't it?

Kind of. It requires similar cars, the ICE car to be a conventional one, and the EV to be mostly charged at home.

The actual cost I paid.

Not unless your average drive is mostly 70-80mph highway across the Utah, Nevada and Arizona deserts in high wind, as my trip was. My Prime's average is 5 miles/kWh but in those conditions I was getting 2.8-3.2 in EV mode.

 

So a more fair cost per mile would include the actual cost paid at home for the first full charge, right?
Let's say that you want to arrive back home with ~50+ miles; So you drive 1100 miles from Supercharger rates and 245 miles (out of 310 in a fully charged at home M3). My home solar provides electricity at about 7-10 cents/kwh. Much of the country is a bit higher. Denver is 11 cents.

1100 miles / 4m/kwh = 275 kwh, 275*.24 = $66 (supercharger fees)
245 miles / 4 = 61.25, 61.25*.10 = $6.125 (home charging)
total = $72.125

cost per mile = $72.125 / 1345 = $0.054 /mile, which beats your Prius gas fillups.
(Feel free to try out other reasonable home prices but if you pick a high electric cost area you need to adjust the gas prices as well)

Mike

 

I think that's almost irrelevant. This was actually a segment of a much longer trip (almost 3,000 miles) where that first little bit wouldn't have mattered very much. I picked just this segment because it was verifiably all gas to sort-of match a hybrid car.

I personally never let remaining range drop below 150 miles. Good thing on this trip too, because we got trapped behind a forest fire and had to stop, turn around and go back the way we came, and then take an entirely different route adding more than 100 miles to that segment of the trip (closer to 150, actually).

 

Good thing that they don't allow moving the goal posts in football.

I'm pretty sure that you didn't drive 1300 miles in one day. So in my version of the trip I choose to stop at free or lower cost destination chargers to charge each night!!!

Mike

 

It is NOT a safe drive - going balls out for that long. I confess somewhat stupidly doing that 2 or 3X over 45+yrs of driving. Last time - decades ago younger in a AWD SUV. Irony is in exactly 3wks - a hybrid solo cannonball run awaits - SoCal to the Fort Smith AR area. Unlike earlier insane/sleepless runs - there are 4 or 5 good stopping places with chargers, & turning on tired level - the plan is to hit a couple stops. It'll be interesting to see how the trip ends up efficiency wise, compared to the SUV olden days.

.

 

On that 14 day trip, I did stay one place with a destination charger (Kanab Utah). The only other place I stayed that had a charger (L2) effectively charged over a dollar a kWh.

 

Here's the problem:

There are still a lot of people who think that a hybrid car must be plugged in to recharge the battery.

I personally still encounter people who say that they would like to drive a hybrid, but they don't have a place to plug in. Or they say that they don't consider buying a hybrid because they don't want to have to look for charging stations and wait for the car to charge on longer trips.

These people never bothered to inform themselves about hybrids, and likely never will, unless they meet someone like me, or something else catches their attention that causes them to reconsider. They are not interested, so they apparently just skipped over any informative advertisements or articles they might have come across.

To get their attention in an advertisement you need to get the message across in four or fewer words.


When I talk to people who don't know about hybrids, and they ask how far I can drive before I have to recharge the battery, I say "forever". That gets their attention, and they ask me to explain. Does that make me a liar, a scammer or anti BEV?


BTW, is there even one single documented case of a consumer buying a Toyota or Lexus hybrid in the belief that it would consume no gasoline? Who filed the complaint against Toyota?

 

That is a commercial reason for this "childish" approach from Toyota/Lexus behalf...
In fact, it is still very common to find people that think charging is needed for the low consumption achieved with the HSD system.

 

....true that...nobody speaks in favor of hybrids, and if they do, they get blasted

 

Back to topic, I highly doubt you would find someone in Norway that believes that. Here, yes, I’ve been asked that as well but it was a long time ago when I had a Gen 2. There still is issues with plug-in hybrids where I have been asked, more than a couple of times, what happens when the charge runs out. For this reason the uptake on their RAV4 Prime might be fine at first but may peter out later. And I don’t think Lexus will ever produce a plug-in NX300 because of that perception unless they advertise it as a performance hybrid.

Kia Niro Hybrid is also advertised as a self charging hybrid. Maybe they had an issue with Toyota trying to own the title. They also compare it to their e-Niro which might cause confusion.


Unsupervised!

 

2016 Model S & 2017 Model X;
Free Supercharging & Free / Amortized PV solar charging at home.
All 24,000 miles = $0.00

If we ever get another tesla, it'll be an oldie w/ free supercharging.
I understand a few of the rwd performance 3's were allowed to 'pay' 2 or 3 thousand for unlimited supercharging ... and those cannonball drivers that took Tesla up on it have made it pay off.
.

 

Greta, poor greta. Such an easy life, she says C02 & old politicians have destroyed her future, as it's the greatest evil of all time. I forget how many 1,000's of miles she flew to make that statement. Meanwhile, crazy countries want to get nukes, & past countries have tried to rule the world - killing millions towards that objective. Never mind drugs, sex trade, etc. And yet carbon it the greatest intrinsic evil.

pretty sure john was thinking inside the HSD?
.

 

Greta who?

Math, physics, chemistry, and empiricism have driven my opinions. I really don't get a sh*t about someone who has not done a paper or original research. With or without Greta, Muther Nature has her own agenda.

Bob Wilson