Toyota Will Delay Lithium Battery Intro in Hybrids

Where can I get a Volt?

 

Toyota is scrutenized because they have such a great reputation for quality and reliability. (well earned, I believe). So, when they have any type of problem people jump up and say SEE, SEE Toyota is blowing it! While when GM has a problem, everyone shrugs and says "par for the course".

Kind of like when someone posts a thread. "So much for Toyota quality - My 15 year old Camry broke down and left me stranded on the highway".

GM seems to be changing a bit - for the better. We will just have to wait and see how it goes with the Volt and their other Hybrids. I think the "semi" hybrid concept is not such a bad idea. Although, what matters is what the car buying public thinks.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Jun 14 2007, 12:38 PM) [snapback]461644[/snapback]</div>

Here we go again about the Tundra. You always are saying that it is a failure, but 17,000 units is not bad for a Truck that is not trying to be #1 in the market yet. You need to remember how Toyota built their market share, It was the old fashioned way quality vehicles at competive prices = repeat buyers. You mention things about incentives and you are right Toyota is known as a company that rarely has incentives as most of their rebates are either only $500 or $1000, but they have done the 0 % APR lately and alot of people here have their Prius on the 0 % 24 mo. or the 1.9% 60 mo that they have been running alot of lately. Chances are of those 17,000 Tundra's that were sold probably 70 % will absolutely love them and guess what 10 years from now when they need a new truck, they will look at Toyota first, just like how Chevy and Ford rely on repeat business to maintain their truck fleets.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wiyosaya @ Jun 14 2007, 12:58 PM) [snapback]461666[/snapback]</div>

Toyota owns Panasonic EV, the company that developed and make their current NiMH Prius batteries, and are currently developing the LiIon cells for the next generation of Toyota hybrids.

However something smells distinctly fishy with this story in general.

First, Wall Street journal reports that Toyota are concerned about fires from the COBALT based lithium-ion batteries. OK, you might say, that's what cobalt based batteries can do.

But an automaker like Toyota would never seriously consider using cobalt based LiIon because they can, like laptop batteries that also currently use cobalt, burst into flames if damaged or abused.

So it makes great sense that Panasonic EV have been developing (for Toyota) a fire-proof lithium-ion variant, using established and proven MANGANESE based chemistry. Slightly lower energy density than cobalt, but great safety and longevity profile - specifically for automotive purposes.

The rumours suggest that Toyota fears cobalt based fires, but their supplier has been developing a manganese based alternative - who is telling the truth?

It could well be the case that they just want to make the switch to nanotech or LiFePO4 batteries instead, to avoid being leapfrogged by a decade at least by GMs adoption of A123 (or Altair) batteries. Regardless of whatever mockery GM may have received on this board and many others, this scenario is a VERY real and serious concern of the company.

 

How anyone can blame Toyota for being cautious regarding its use of lithium-ion technology is beyond me. Hell, just look at the number of laptop batteries that Dell had to recall and replace because of problems with lithium-ion and its easy to see why Toyota has chosen this course of action.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MickeyA @ Jun 14 2007, 01:03 PM) [snapback]461673[/snapback]</div>

The same place you can get a plug-in Prius.

 

Need to step in and say GM does know how to make full hybrids and does so with their large bus drivetrain. I hope they sell a lot of them. Not sure who was "first" in successful full hybrid development, but I don't shortchange American engineering compared to Asian. People who do so don't realize (or deny) the high level of ability American people still possess. Apparently GM started to develop the system about when Toyota started on theirs. The problem isn't in the engineering or talent to produce, it is in the business decisions, IMO. Toyota is willing to lose money making the early Prius, looking forward to the day when most all cars will be hybrids or EV.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mr.Vanvandenburg @ Jun 14 2007, 01:19 PM) [snapback]461688[/snapback]</div>

GM used to have that philosophy, if we sell these Chevy Cavaliers and Pontiace Sunfires at a loss to HS kids and college kids, we will make it up later because research states that over 50 % of all people will purchase their second and third car from the same manufacturer as their first car, but they forgot that you have to build your product to match the quality of the rest of your line, in order to keep them, which is why they truly started losing money on them.

 

Sounds to me this Li-Ion delay is b/c Toyota is trying to develop thier own Li-Ion. A123, nanowhatever and whoever else appears to be more advanced than Toyota. Seems like a good oppourtunity for another car company to leapfrog. Capitalism continues. I just don't understand why GM doesn't put an electric only car back on the market yesterday to regain some green halo. I would think they could do it real quick re: the EV1. I would love the S10 version.

 

Is there a battery FAQ, either here or somewhere else? Some kind of summary of the different kinds of batteries?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ Jun 14 2007, 01:14 PM) [snapback]461682[/snapback]</div>

Interesting. I did not know about this, but I knew something had to be going on there.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ Jun 14 2007, 01:14 PM) [snapback]461682[/snapback]</div>

Well, whatever is going on, IMHO, Toyota looked rather "stupid" to say that current battery technology was not up to the PHEV task only to have a few companies come along and say, "Oh, Toyota, is that so? Look at what we have here that you can buy now from us." But then, I think this announcement clearly indicates that Toyota is not afraid to admit a "mistake," even if done in a manner that saves face. Of course, I would not be surprised if GM made A123 sign an exclusive contract with them, but A123 is not the only game in town.

As Mr.Vanvandenburg stated, I also would not short-change American engineering; however, the business decisions by the "Big 3" are certainly suspect at this point and almost certainly have been to their own detriment.

At least Toyota is willing to entertain the possibility that what they are planning on marketing may not be the best for the company, business wise, and, probably they understand that it takes much more money to fix something after you have released a product. So, it makes sense that they have taken that step back and said with this announcement, "Let's do this right rather than half-baked." IMHO, this is probably a sound business decision and is aimed at putting the best product they can on the market, rather than producing something that may not be reliable.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wiyosaya @ Jun 14 2007, 11:58 AM) [snapback]461666[/snapback]</div>

Toyota made a business decision about the liIon batteries, it had nothing to do with safety or fire. They have made many similar decisions lately.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jun 14 2007, 02:28 PM) [snapback]461802[/snapback]</div>

You believe everything that Toyota releases in their press releases? How about how they are creating jobs in the US? I suppose you believe that one too. :lol: GM will be far and away the leader in alternative technology very soon in the US.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jun 14 2007, 02:35 PM) [snapback]461808[/snapback]</div>

Quite frankly GM was shocked when they did not go after the liIon battery technology. It is a HUGE opportunity for GM and the United States.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jun 14 2007, 02:41 PM) [snapback]461811[/snapback]</div>

I will hold you to that DOC. I don't have any proof other than from GM itself. They are dumbfounded by the decision. And again, the VOLT is very real.

 

When is the Volt for sale?