Toyota to recall 3.8 million vehicles

Re: Prius Recall ('04 - '09)

I looked at the NTHSA photo (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/Communication%20&%20Consumer%20Information/Articles/Associated%20Files/Toyota_Mat_09.JPG), and it definitely looks like a Toyota OEM all-weather mat, though not a Prius. I decided to take the camera out and do a little investigation.

[ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/fo0bar/3967548751/"]Toyota OEM all-weather floor mat installation on Flickr - Photo Sharing![/ame]

This is the OEM all-weather mat set I bought for my 09, part number PT909-12051 (which not on that list circulating).

[ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/fo0bar/3967548151/"]Toyota OEM all-weather floor mat installation on Flickr - Photo Sharing![/ame]

Properly installed, there is plenty of space around the accelerator pedal.

[ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/fo0bar/3967550247/"]Toyota OEM all-weather floor mat installation on Flickr - Photo Sharing![/ame]
[ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/fo0bar/3968325340/"]Toyota OEM all-weather floor mat installation on Flickr - Photo Sharing![/ame]

There are two heavy duty hooks installed to keep the mat in place. With normal OEM carpet floor mats, they are quite difficult to pop out, intentionally or accidentally. With the rubber all-weather mats, it's nearly impossible. (This is good!) Also what I would consider a secondary safety feature is the left foot rest. It sits a good quarter inch up, and makes it so the mat can't move an inch.

[ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/fo0bar/3967551083/"]Toyota OEM all-weather floor mat installation on Flickr - Photo Sharing![/ame]

Here's the underside of the mat. The rubber cleats are very, very grippy, but if the hooks were not in place, they could inch forward after many trips.

[ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/fo0bar/3968327324/"]Toyota OEM all-weather floor mat installation on Flickr - Photo Sharing![/ame]
[ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/fo0bar/3968327962/"]Toyota OEM all-weather floor mat installation on Flickr - Photo Sharing![/ame]

As an exercise, I undid the hooks and moved the mat forward. I was not able to replicate the NTHSA photo exactly (with the pedal caught in the inner lip of the mat), I do believe it could somehow happen. However, I was able to get the pedal stuck under the mat in full acceleration position, using just the force of the mat. It's a pretty heavy mat, which enhances its safety when properly installed, but could keep the accelerator pedal down if improperly installed.

[ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/fo0bar/3967552927/"]Toyota OEM all-weather floor mat installation on Flickr - Photo Sharing![/ame]
[ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/fo0bar/3967553627/"]Toyota OEM all-weather floor mat installation on Flickr - Photo Sharing![/ame]

However, look at these two photos. The mat is uncomfortably high up the foot rest, and is several inches beyond the reach of the hooks.

In conclusion, I do believe a stuck accelerator could occur, but any scenario would depend on the hooks not being installed. I believe that the recall is not due to any design flaw, but as a way to get vehicles in to check proper installation of the mat hooks.

 

Re: Prius Recall ('04 - '09)

I commented on this problem on my 2004 Prius in 2007. I purchased the correct all-weathr rubber mats for the car from Toyota, and installed them securely on the clips.

The first time the accelerator became stuck, I managed to free it but did not know what happened. I suspected it was the mats as the clips had come off, and reattached them.

I reported it to Toyota during maintenance, and they did not believe me. They checked that the clips were secure and sent me on my way. Over the next few months, the clips loosened, and the mat caused the pedal to stick a few more times. Each time, I reattached the clips securely. Finally, I had the Toyota people cut the mat during the next service and its been ok since. Note that the cutout on the mat was well clear of the pedal as installed. It was the clips loosening (and they will come out at some point) which allowed the mats to move forward to the point where the angled edge (about .5 in thick) allowed the pedal to get wedged in when I stepped on the gas hard. Stepping on the pedal a few times, and/or prying the pedal loose with my foot freed it in my case, but I was lucky.

The incidents could have easily led to accidents. I thought it serious enough to file a report with the NHTSA, hoping that it would lead to action, but somehow fearing that it would take a major accident before they act.

Folks, take the NHTSA warning seriously. If you have the Toyota rubber mats, remove it or cut them so there's no way they could interfere with the pedal.

http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-prius-main-forum/29900-accelerator-pedal-sticking.html#post384671

 

I wish my Subaru had two hooks holding the floor mat down like the Prius. Properly attached, I don't see how the Prius mat could budge at all. The Suby only has one and it shifts around a good deal - I adjust it every couple days.

 

Here's some very recent background from San Diego. The chilling 911 tape was played on all the local TV news channels.

The Japanese automaker warned owners that if they think their vehicle is accelerating out of control, they should check to see whether their floor mat is under the pedal. If a driver can't remove the floor mat, Toyota advises drivers to step on the brake pedal with both feet until the vehicle slows and then try to put it into neutral and switch the ignition to accessory power.


For vehicles with engine start/stop buttons, Toyota said the engine can be shut off by holding the button down for three seconds.


In the August incident near San Diego, the fiery crash of a 2009 Lexus ES 350 killed California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor, 45, and three members of his family on State Route 125 in Santee. The runaway car was traveling at more than 120 mph when it hit a sport utility vehicle, launched off an embankment, rolled several times and burst into flames. One of the family members called police about a minute before the crash to report the vehicle had no brakes and the accelerator was stuck. The call ended with someone telling people in the car to hold on and pray, followed by a woman's scream.


NHTSA investigators determined that a rubber all-weather floor mat found in the wreckage was slightly longer than the mat that belonged in the vehicle, something that could have snared or covered the accelerator pedal.


Toyota spokesman John Hanson said the final report had not yet been submitted in the California case.


"We don't know what the actual cause was of that accident other than preliminary reports that have been published so it's impossible for us to comment on that particular incident," Hanson said.


In mid-September, Toyota ordered 1,400 Toyota and Lexus dealers nationwide to ensure that each new, used and loaner vehicles had the proper floor mats and that the mats were properly secured.


In September 2007, Toyota recalled an accessory all-weather floor mat sold for use in some 2007 and 2008 model year Lexus ES 350 and Toyota Camry vehicles because of similar problems.


For more information, consumers can contact the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's hotline at (888) 327-4236, Toyota at (800) 331-4331 or Lexus at (800) 255-3987.

 

ok i'm all for safety but the big headlines being flashed is "accelerator problem". at first glance it will seem that there's something mechanically wrong with the accelerator of the car itself, when it's actually all because of the carpet. why not say "carpet risk"? people tend to just read the headline and not get all of the details and make assumptions about the car. when it was a consumer's lack of judgement or carelessness. i have the oem carpet plus another one on top of it. no problems whatsoever. just common sense not to have it all thick under the accelerator.

 

Re: Prius Recall ('04 - '09)

Wow.

 

Re: Prius Recall ('04 - '09)

I think the other question about your specific case is 'do you attribute the unforeseen acceleration to the mat(s) or do you suspect that something else was occuring?' Did you notice that the exact mat or the OEM mat was interfering with the pedal(s)?

 

For those of you thinking RTFM, please keep in mind that the San Diego crash was in a dealer loaner car. I don't know what car the driver had, but the 2009 ES350 has push button start/stop requiring one to hold down the button 3 seconds to turn the car off, which may have been different than his car.

It's great to look back in hindsight and say you would have done thing that seem obvious. But in a moment of panic, who knows? At least now this has gotten people to think about it.

 

I spoke with my dealer today. Toyota hasn't given them any info yet. They heard about it this morning on the radio like everyone else. The factory mats have hold downs at the rear of the mat. They are held in place by this clip. The mat WILL NOT move. it is perfectly fine. If you have aftermarket mats without the hole in them to hook on this clip you may have trrouble

 

Yours should have the clips. I drive a 2002 Subaru Legacy wagon as a company car. IT HAS THE CLIPS, As do all our other newer Subaru company cars, Legacy's and Outbacks from 2002 to 2009

 

I read this with disbelief. Toyota is still contending that the unintended acceleration problem is caused by mats bunching up *over* the pedel and keeping it depressed. Try and do that. My 2006 Prius had the unintended accelaration problem. Even the dealer agreed the mat could not be blamed. Toyota has consistently refused to admit there may be an ECU issue. Instead it says it is the floor mats. Apparently a fatal accident in California caused by unintended acceleration was the straw that brokethe lawers' backs and prompted the notice.

I am disappointed. By the way, I traded my 2006 in July for 2010. I feel much safer.

Bob

 

Re: Recall of 3.8 Million Toyotas - Not the '10 though

It has to do with installing them improperly. I had removed them for cleaning and have put them back in so that the floor mat is on top of the gas pedal. You'll just have to make sure the front edge of the floor mat is tucked in and doesn't ride up on the gas pedal. And you have to make sure you hook on to the the clips first before you lay down the driver's floor mat.

Wonder if the 2010 has the same type of clips.

 

Ditto. The first thing I do before I get in the car after I have it washed is put the mat back where it belongs. And "unsecured" is correct.

 

Re: Prius Recall ('04 - '09)

right. tell it (Lexus rental car, rented by a chp member in the San Diego area ... never instructed how to power down while in motion) to the dead guy's family.

CHP Officer, Family Killed in Crash | NBC San Diego

Funny, isn't it? How when it's OUR family or loved one ... then it not about litigation.

The hooks are pretty serious hooks. Chances are that after the car gets washed (rental, or personally owned) ... someone doesn't take the time to re-hook 'em. That too is sometimes hard. Even so, I personally don't just give up ... say, "aw, the heck with it ... I'll just leave it unhooked". But I could imagine a car rental joint with a minimum wage car washer guy doing that.

Lexus / Toyota (as well as TONS of cars industry wide) use interchangable parts. Just because one shop sews the words LEXUS onto a mat, doesn't make it different. Look at the recall ... LOTS of models, on both trademarks. Further, even if it was an AFTERMARKET mat ... if it utilized the same design, then products liability laws find the design inherantly flawed.

Crying out loud folks this aint the 1st time junk got stuck under the pedal. It's happened on & off for decades. Mats ... coke cans ... egg cartons ... beer botles ... shoes ... Burger King trash ... etc. Then you go back to the old days ... stuck butterfly valves inside the carbs ... throttle linkage etc.

3.8 million potential cars ... one stuck mat fatality. Our society doesn't accept that ... whether it's a car mat ... a new wonder drug or whatever. It's got to be PERFECT. Don't like it? Tell it to your congress person(s) ... they're the ones who write your state's laws. I'm guessing YOU WON'T. Why? Because the insurance lobby that makes trillions is the ultimate winner ... and no one is taking THEM on.
.

 

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl603/teen_htm/special.htm

However experienced one was it possible people just forget since they never had the chance to apply what they learned from a long time ago.

 

Re: Recall of 3.8 Million Toyotas - Not the '10 though

Well, it is really beyond my imagination how on Earth could anybody install a mat *over* the gas pedal?

Properly installed mat simply *cannot* cause the gas pedal go stuck – I really cannot imagine how. It has the safety clips. The bottom of the mat that goes down onto the floor is Velcro-like, so even without the clips, it holds pretty firmly (at least in mine).

I was shaken terribly when reading about the Lexus accident. Just starred at the text in total disbelief and horror. How could this have happened? I simply cannot imagine how… Such a tragedy.

Still, I cannot imagine what is Toyota supposed to do with that? The mats are secured more than enough – I never seen a car with mat clips or Velcro-bottom before in my life! In my previous car, I had rubber mats completely loose, no fastening at all! When I saw the mat clips in my new Prius for the first time, I just thought something about Toyota being paranoid. How are they supposed to improve that, what are they expected to do to the recalled cars?

I really think there is nothing wrong with the cars. The drivers should be responsible and make sure to install the mats properly. Again, I am convinced that a properly installed mat could not cause a pedal becoming stuck… I am definitely not going to remove *my* mat.

 

Re: Prius Recall ('04 - '09)

Indeed, wow. That is the reaction I had to those stating how experienced this officer was, blah, blah, blah.

I have had a couple of "unintended acceleration experiences." The worst and first came from when I was ~18 and we had an old International Harvester pick up truck that had been retired to farm work only. It had some throttle problems related to a small underhood fire that led to it popping and sticking itself full open at times. The automatic transmission would drop down, then stick and wouldn't let you shift, and the brakes couldn't hold it once the engine wrapped up. It was damned exciting throwing up turf from the drive wheels, literally trying not to hit any cows/calves in the herd. But I did manage to shut it down safely in a few seconds despite having very limited driving experience and very little mechanical savvy back then.

Over the years I've experienced minor throttle issues from kid's stuff rolling underneath the pedals, big boots or wide flip flops getting wedged just right, mats shifting around, etc. It doesn't take long to figure out what the problem is and correct it. I suppose I expect a bit more ability to deal with the unexpected from an officer trained in high speed pursuit and managing emergency situations.

 

Re: Prius Recall ('04 - '09)

It's a good idea to make sure you don't have objects near your driving foot while driving. I've always been cautious of things getting caught in that area. Especially when I drive my friend's car who have trash like empty plastic bottle and small do-dads under the driver's seat.

 

My 2003 WRX has 1 clip on the left side (imagine if your Prius only had one clip, the left one holding it down). Over the years, the clip has gotten progressively looser and has actually pulled out of the carpet below letting the mat move more and more. Even new the mat would shift around a bit.

I still don't think it will move enough to get stuck over the pedal without noticing first, but it certainly doesn't do nearly as good a job as the clips in my Prius where the mat doesn't budge at all. I am seriously considering pulling the WRX's carpet up and using a short bolt/nut and some large fender washers to help hold the mat in place.

Really, Toyota's design here looks very good to me, far better than any other car I've owned - the recall issue seems to be with those thick all-weather mats or improperly installed mats.