Toyota to announce hydrogen fuel cell breakthrough

I asked Mr. Google to try and find more details but so far:

• It will be at the Frankfurt Auto Show, Sept 10-22
• It will be at the Las Vega Consumer Electronics Show, in January

Hard facts and data about the technology are otherwise difficult to find. Regardless, maybe we'll have something to read in April when the SAE papers come out.

Right now, too much 'looks fine, runs a long time' and not enough 'here is how we did it.'

Bob Wilson

 

Bob remember how the volt had a really long PR campaign, but we didn't get the full details until 6 months before shipping. They kind of trickled them out, and pretended steps backward were steps forward. The toyota pr machine has been promoting this car and tech for over 10 years. There are not going to be firm details until closer to a real launch in japan. We aren't even sure if the car has only 4 seats, maybe production will have more?

We have price which may be in the neighborhood of $50,000 in the US (after tax breaks? Is $80,000 pre tax breaks in this neighborhood) or maybe 100,000 euros in europe. That seems clear as mud. There will be a traction battery, but we don't really know the size (old prototype had 21kw nimh smaller than prius, but that is not indication of what production will be). We have an epa city range estimated at over 300 miles (no suprise, but much smaller than fchv-adv which was promoting its japanese range not epa). We do know 2 x 10,000 psi carbon fiber hydrogen tanks, that is the only official detail released. They will only be able to fill up part of the way on some of the 5000 psi fueling stations in california.

We should learn more at Frankfort, but I don't expect that we will get full details. Maybe we will learn how many seats the car has, and if the battery is nimh or lithium. I don't expect toyota to spill everything, otherwise they will have nothing to hype in 6 months on the car.

 

That makes sense. Hydrogen's more of an energy storage system than a fuel.

 

21kwh is a very big battery, 4.7x more energy than the one in the prius phv. Its the size of the pack in the upcoming bmw i3. The previous toyota fuel cell vehicles had a 21kw nimh battery.
NFCRC: Hydrogen Program - Fuel Cell Hybrid Vehicle Program

The next generation FCHV-adv increased the pressure to 70 MPa (10,000 psi). IIRC that was 2009, they just kept the old battery because they didn't really worry about driving before the fuel cell warmed up. In a production car though, you may want more power.

The 21kw battery, the 2015 date, the increased fc power density, all of it has been in other press releases. Why would toyota announce anything new right before the show, and step on their presentation? I expect that we will get more interesting information soon. As I said, I don't expect the actual production car to use the same battery as the older prototypes.

 

21kw in prototypes at least 4 years. 10,000 psi for 4 years, 2015 ever since it slipped from 2012. Price drop innovations since 2002, latest on hydrogen tanks last year. What do you think is new here that was not announced before 2013?

I thought it was stupid when the volt pulled the same multi year anouncements. Its not hurt, but I don't like it when people are sucked in by this stuff. Nothing that toyota has anounced sounds like it improves greatly upon the clarity, already out there other than a promised much lower price.

The real problem is toyota stomps on their plug-ins with this crap in every press release. Do you think that people really want this beast more than a toyota plug-in. Toyota has been promoting that batteries aren't ready but fuel cells are, just in a couple of years, and in a couple of years I would not expect toyota to sell any more of these in america, than the rav4 ev. I would expect the next gen prius phv, if done well to sell at least a order of magnitude more.

 

For those that doubt the anouncement of an anouncement only contained old information here is the one from 2011 that says toyota may have a price increase from $50,000 promised and the car isn't going to be a highlander and will be available by 2015.

Toyota Hydrogen Fuel Cell on sale by 2015 at €100k

You saw the article from 2006 about the 21 kw batteries in the fuel cell vehicles built by toyota since 2002.

Toyota has indeed announced that they will soon announce new information at the frankfurt show. I look forward to being stunned and amazed at the millions of fcv they plan to sell by 2030, and seeing how this is much less expensive and more desirable than a tesla S. Or if it goes as most of the other fuel cell announcements have gone, it will bash plug-in cars but pretty much be like a less expensive version of the clarity. Reporters that don't like plug-ins will write down every word exactly as the press release tells them to, and the world will likely yawn.

 

Oh yes . . . . nice . . . . it always is . . . right?
» Obama, Chu try to slash the multi-miracle hydrogen program once again

 

As I said, it's branding. The only thing this FCV has in common with Toyota's current hybrids is that there is a battery and a traction motor. There isn't a PSD, a second motor, or even a third motor to replace the ICE. FCVs are just EVs, albeit hamstrung ones, with a drive train that will be just as complicated. You can take any BEV on the road today, and replace part of its battery with a fuel cell, and not have to make any changes to the drive train.

The line about the fuel stack replacing the ICE is totally misleading. A fuel stack is just a battery, but different. All it does is supply electrical power. It can't propel the vehicle on its own like a ICE.

Toyota could use HSD in conjunction with their BEVs with just as much validity. The fact that they don't want EVs associated with their successful hybrids is another point showing they want nothing to do with a plug.

JC08 is the new, higher speed one. The 10-15 results are with a fully warmed engine and top speed of 70km/hr. Perhaps the FCV can't officially perform the JC08 with cold start yet.

The gen3 Prius gets 89.4mpg on the 10-15. On the JC08, it's 76.7mpg. The FCV range on the EPA might reach 200 miles.

 

Seems to me FCV potentially helps PHEV feasibility in CA, as follows:
CA authorities demand more cars with zero tailpipe emissions.
That means EV and FCV.
EV has eventual limits in CA for two reasons: (1) shortage of cost effective in-state electricity, and (2) potential shortage public of charging stations.
So FCV allows CA to increase zero tail pipe emission car population, assuming it reaches saturation point on EV ownership.
I really foresee no long term problem getting H2 highway established in CA.
Sure be nice though if the FCV could Plug_In to get enough power to limp to the next H2 station.

 

Wouldn't hydrogen be more constrained than electricity? It takes more electricity to run a fuel cell vehicle a mile than an plugin (approximately 3x). If you are using natural gas it is much easier to build 1 500 MW ccgt power station than hundreds of hydrogen reformers, tanks and pumps.

ah, bevs may not be bought because they are too expensive, but fcv are also expensive. PHEVs give you electric miles, so you are saying if regulators demand FCV by say giving them 7 credits instead of 3 for a leaf, and making sure you can't satisfy the credits with phevs. Do you think a prius phv pollutes much more than a fuel cell vehicle running reformed natural gas? That seems like a problem with regulation not resources.

No it just takes lots of money. Who do you think should pay for this hydrogen highway? Taxpayers outside California, or those in the state. I guaranty those in the state will be upset if they actually have to pay for it.

 

H

For each hydrogen fueling station built you could probably install 100 or 1000 EV charging stations...for the same price

Mike

 

The whole concept of hybrid synergy drive is to achieve greater than otherwise not possible with individual powertrains, doing it alone.

PSD and MG1 (generator) were required for gas engine. They are not needed for FCHV. It may need more powerful traction motor. I think the concept FCHV-adv used the same traction motor from Highland hybrid. Keep in mind that H2-battery hybrid was much lighter than gas-battery hybrid.

Synergy is attained by managing power flow from two different power sources. It involves blending and splitting power depending on driving demands. I would bet that the secret source to optimally use both fuel cell stack and batter is why Toyota is branding it as HSD.

EV has only one power source (battery). There is no blending or splitting to control for the optimal overall efficiency.

 

Agreed.

I am not sure why people are surprised that FCV's are also hybrids. It only makes sense. Fuel Cells produce electric output, no mechanical linkage to wheels.
So, you already need to have an electric motor for motive power, which is one of the main components of a hybrid.

Once you have this, it would be foolish not to add a battery to recapture braking energy. You've already got the prime component and a good chunk of the cost, and with battery costs dropping rapidly, I am willing to bet we will not see a FVC -ever- sold without at least a small battery for regen energy storage.

That being said, I am sure each carmaker will come up with their own hybrid architecture, in much the same way as ICE-HEV's.

 

Yup, until we have fuel cell stack that can convert regen electricity back to hydrogen, FCVs will be hybrids.

 

The only reason I can see for Toyota to be confusing the marketplace by saying that they are using the HSD for a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle is to work around EV patents that they have not licensed.