Featured Toyota Talks Prius Prime versus Chevrolet Volt, Mirai, TNGA, and CH-R

This is simply not true John.
It may serve no purpose to you, but it is one of the top three questions I have been asked when talking with thousands of interested people (not all at once obviously).

How a car behaves is very important to people.
Having some idea of what is normal and what is not is very comforting for an owner.
Knowing that the gas engine is going to start if you 'step on it' or if you go above a certain speed is something many people want to know.

And most people that have test driven any EV find they prefer the nice smooth drive while in EV mode, so they want to stay there.
Is that as important as EV range? No, most likely not, but it certainly is not of "no purpose".

 

No one has talked with ordinary mainstream consumers yet about the upcoming market. We don't have final specs or even pricing. We all must wait.

Your stats are from gen-1, now outdated due to the technology & design changes along with the new audience. The circumstances differ now. Heck, just think about how Model 3 reservations changed expectations.

As for labels, explain the drive difference between Prime and Volt and Leaf. They all deliver a full EV experience. No identifier needed.

 

It also does not change the reality that some simple "label" is going to be put in the public lexicon for unique vehicles. "EREV" is no more or less informative than "Hybrid".

 

You agree with me. Cool !

Generic categories and labels have always been misleading, hence referring to real-world data instead.

 

Sure, but categories and labels are necessary and only mislead those that don't want to think or investigate. Even Priuschat posters must have labels.

 

For example ?

 

Lots of people who like the EV driving experience want to know that it won't suddenly be ended because they accelerated a little too strongly at the wrong speed and that they can drive at least 80-85 mph with the engine off.

But I thought you were demanding more mainstream lower-cost options. Why are you happy with the i3 but negative about the Volt? The BMW is inherently more expensive because of the extensive use of aluminum in the unibody frame and carbon fiber for all exterior panels. And, of course, Chevrolet sells sports cars from $50,000+ to over $100,000. The Corvette has established a high quality brand identity and the Volt has as well at a lower scale. That's why a 20+ mile 90 HP PHEV probably would be delivered under a Cruze model name rather than a Volt.

The i3 rex will struggle to climb a mountain even at low speeds once it's ~1 kWh hybrid buffer gives out on a long uphill stretch. That's just basic physics. It will be like a 1960-era VW bug struggling uphill in 2nd gear at 30 mph... Maybe worse. Owners report having to periodically stop on the side of the road while the engine thrashes to regenerate one kWh or so before they can pull into traffic again for a short stretch.

As for 80 mph, no it can't do that either. The top sustained speed is about 70 mph. Anything much over that on a flat highway with no headwinds will eat into the hybrid buffer and result in a forced power reduction and slower driving.

Even if you don't live near mountains, you might certainly cross some during a road trip.

GM's full hybrids (Two-Mode) were just fine but they were designed into pickups and SUVs where customers didn't want them and the very low volume resulted in high prices. The eAssist micro-hybrids were "crap" in that they did not significantly increase efficiency. Their benefit was supposed to be low implementation cost but customers didn't see the point since the mph increase was so small. Finally, after trying all other possible approaches, GM is now adding high efficiency full-hybrid options to normal passenger cars.

The Ford Energi models and the forthcoming Prius Prime can maintain 80-84 mph but their acceleration near those speeds is probably rather weak. Nonetheless, for sedate drivers with short commutes on fast freeways they will stay all-electric.

What specs and pricing are we missing? We have basic specs for Volt, Energi, Ioniq, Prime, Bolt EV, and Model 3 and many others. We have approximate pricing for all of these as well.

It's great that Toyota now has a battery with enough output power to support non-blended electric driving at speeds under 85 mph before switching on the engine when the driver demands higher speeds. However, the Prime is limited by its 68 kW battery output so acceleration become noticeably limited at higher highway speeds.

The LEAF's battery can fully feed its 80 kW motor so it can do better at higher speeds. It's far bigger battery can also support that peak output over almost all of its range while the Prime's peak 68 kW may be more limited as its battery SOC falls below 50% after 8-10 miles (at 70-80 mph). We don't know enough details about that yet

The Volt's battery can fully feed its 111 kW combined motors over its full 53 mile EPA range so it's acceleration at higher highway speeds stays strong while the LEAF's 80 kW motor begins to lose its oomph.

The Prime provides full EV up to 84 mph and blended power with the gas engine at higher speeds up to around 110-115 mph. The LEAF and Volt provide full EV up to their top speed of about 100 mph.

 

bisco?

 

Nice high speed power specs on the Volt. Maybe I'm too much of a snail on the road, and the exponential loss of energy at those speeds is tough to swallow (and safety?).

Are the PriusChat energy misers among us really pushing 85 mph?

Driving like that, one may want a Tesla to do it in style. Oh, and watch out for cops

 

In fairness to the i3 REX, these faults are because of CARB and not BMW. In Europe i3 REX drivers can turn the range extender on sooner to have more buffer in the battery.

But this discussion is about "mainstream" car buyers.

 

True enough, manufacturers are trying to market these vehicles to a wider audience. In Southern and Northern California were these vehicles are currently most popular, it's quite rare to see anyone going over 80 mph in a greater metropolitan area. Either traffic or law-enforcement forestalls that.

The more common (but still fairly rare per capita) time driving over 80-85 mph is seen up/down I-5 or hwy 99 which transverses the state from north to south. A bit less chance of meeting a police officer in that case, but unless one has a Tesla currently, such a trip will not be made in EV mode.

 

Even if most of the chain links are world class, if the chain breaks, it is crap. The early GM hybrid components may have been fine examples of component engineering, but not of automotive engineering.

I'm pretty sure the strongest critics of the old GM hybrid efforts are present day GM engineers and some of the senior leadership. Somewhere between now and then a 180 shift occurred. The Volt and Bolt are total engineering efforts. The hybrid Malibu is getting close, but is not a total hybrid effort. The huge difference is making sure all the components integrate into excellent and successful products. The change in culture is still hard to figure out but quite a change.

 

I'm seeing a lot of want being presented as need.

That's a sure confirmation of requirements have been fulfilled.

Next chapter.

 

Cars aren't sold based on need. Most cars are sold based on want.
When we owned our Prii, we didn't need the cargo space, nor the passenger space, nor the efficiency.
We wanted all of the above.

 

I'm curious. What do you think is missing?

Battery interference with a flat pass through when the rear seats are folded down?

 

Using an existing chassis and a great many other common body components as the start point. A lot of compromises are made just to fit the new components into the established framework. There are some efficiencies lost with these compromises.

However, this is overlooking a vastly more important big picture aspect. There are always finite resources and tradeoffs needing to apply to the whole company, not just one vehicle. Putting the most development effort into the Volt and Bolt makes great sense. The payoff of those vehicles succeeding far eclipses the best scenario likely for the hybrid Malibu. The Prius has the high ground when it comes to straight hybrid performance. GM could spend more effort, but the ROI is probably not worth it. The hybrid Malibu payoff is GM is well positioned when gas prices start the inevitable climb on multiple fronts.

 

That is an abstract theoretical worry. In reality, the 2016 Malibu is an all-new redesign that presumably took into account the needs of the hybrid powertrain option.

The Malibu competes with the Camry rather than the Prius in size, performance, and general design. The two cars are about 3,500 pounds and have similar power outputs although the Malibu's 182 HP and 0-60 in 7.4 seconds is just a little less than the Camry's 200 HP and 0-60 in 7.1 seconds (both times according to MotorTrend testing). The Malibu gets an EPA 47/46/46 (city/comb/hwy) vs the Camry 43/41/39.

 

Something that hasn't been discussed is battery temps on an air-cooled design like used in the Energi series. If the Prime will behave the same way, full EV power/acceleration won't be available once ambient temps reach the 90's. Level II charging during peak afternoon temps greatly compounds the issue.

 

We know that there's been heavy R&D with battery chemisty to improve temperature handling. Energi is a bit old at this point.

 

the article's author seems to bring up some pretty strong points. even as GM learned people wanted more electric range, & a 5th seat for their Volt - Toyotas' research, they say, ran squarely into a different conclusion. it's innexplicable how that research could be, even based off the reactions here on P.C.
So the hard-line is that even so, that's what the research shows. I recall back when Toyota and GM were crushing there plug-ins because the research said that that was a great idea. That didn't go too well. And for years they were vilified a bit. It's pretty obvious that often, research finds the conclusion that the researchers already want to find. In the meantime I read that many hold hope that somehow there may be a 12-hour reprieve with the current design. Not according to the research.
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