Featured Toyota says electric cars with 1500km range are just around the corner

The higher capacity is also useful for tow vehicles.

Keep in mid that getting that extra range for towing and other uses does mean paying for it. The cost reductions Toyota talks about in this release are for batteries that would provide the range of a current bZ4X. Doubling that range will mean a 60% increase to the battery cost with the next gen performance battery.

If you are hoping for lower EV prices than today, you will be getting the EV range of today.

 

I had a co-worker that couldn't get his Prius into the 40s mpg very often. His lead foot driving is as meaningless as the fusion driver who gets below 40s MPG even though the Fusion hybrid (or their phev) EPA's in the 40's MPG. Similarly it would be as meaningless as someone saying their Toyota Avalon only gets mileage in the teens even though it EPAs in the 20s. We make an average epa "estimate" by averageing 'em all - my friend ... not looking at the outliers on one end of the spectrum. Never mind considering how much bigger/roomier/heavier an Avalon or fusion are - then a Prius before condemning other rides.

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Though your expectations/requirements seem elusive to meet don't give up hope just wait a little longer

Toyota Touts Solid State EVs With 932-Mile Range, 10-Minute Charging by 2027 | PCMag

"The Japanese automaker says it has found a new material that will help commercialize the elusive, long-awaited solid state battery"

"Solid state batteries promise greater energy density, higher electric range, and faster charging that puts refueling time on-par with a gas-powered vehicle."

"Toyota says it has found a technological breakthrough that will allow it to bring solid state batteries to market as early as 2027."

Toyota Battery Manufacturing, North Carolina (TBMNC) - Toyota USA Newsroom

Toyota announces $591M expansion and EV introduction in Kentucky - Louisville Business First (bizjournals.com)

 

LOL, when has toyota ever 'found' a miracle technology? just nonsense.

it's like the hydrogen joke of the guy pointing to a graph showing how hydrogen surpasses all other tech over time.
in the middle are the words, 'a miracle happens'.

 

If your requirement is lower price, it will be some time after solid state comes to market.

 

how many high price will sell?

 

If your range is long enough, you don't need a fast charging network at all, just L2 at night.

The other advantage of the long range approach over the dense charging approach is the ability to go further to places where there is no electricity and thus no chargers or to go to places with no chargers that are hard to get to and/or have poor conditions. I have driven 3.5 hours over the continental divide, to a dirt parking lot at the base of a mountain, found it -41F when I got there, skied all day, got in the car (after the temperature rose to around +5F) and drove 3.5 hours home (180 miles each way). Does it make sense to install a few thousand L2 chargers into every ski area parking lot so that people in EVs can go skiing? Or perhaps a few hundred fast chargers into a town of 1000 people deep in the mountains for the same reason?

To me, it makes a lot of sense to have the range for a day's driving or the range for a morning's driving, sitting all day, and an evening's driving, since I have done both of those in my life already.

 

Well, Toyota may let you pay extra for that in the future.

 

Can you really charge to that range overnight?

And how much of an edge case are you citing as a reason to carry around all that excess baggage? How many gas stations did you pass on that trip?

I'd instead advocate a charger with two "pumps" at every other gas station. And a range similar to that of most ICE powered cars ... say a dependable 350 or 400.

(I know you have listed a PP and I two hybrids each with a range of around 500. But that trip is maybe 2% of the use cases that people are going to use these vehicles for.)

 

Not with common 27 Amp, 6.5 kW, L2 setups. Over 12 hours, those will get only 230-310 miles, and those won't be winter miles.

40 Amp 9.6 kWs setups should get 345-460 non-winter miles, which may be enough for a significant chunk of folks. The 20 kW sets should cover almost everyone, though many older homes with just 100 Amp service will definitely need electrical upgrades.

 

Yes.

Going skiing? At one time, I did that 16 times in one winter.

Who cares? Skiing that far away is a 16 hour day minimum with no stops.

I'd instead advocate a charger with two "pumps" at every other gas station. And a range similar to that of most ICE powered cars ... say a dependable 350 or 400.

(I know you have listed a PP and I two hybrids each with a range of around 500. But that trip is maybe 2% of the use cases that people are going to use these vehicles for.)[/QUOTE]

If your car can't do what you want it to do, even if that's only 2% if your trips, it's not fit for purpose.

I do about 80% of my trips on my e-bike. My son does 100% of his trips on his. For him, a car is useless. For me, I need one for the "edge cases" I can't do on my bike.

 

Those numbers are for an inefficient car and for 12 hours. I generally treat "over night" as 14 hours (say, 7pm to 9am), and a logical way to install all these chargers is to not - just put in NEMA 14-50s. 9.6kW for 14 hours is 134kWh - about the same as a full tank of gas in a Prius.

 

While remote locations likely won't have a charger soon, it is an assumption that they will never have them.
https://electrek.co/2022/09/22/how-jeeps-off-road-ev-chargers-compare-to-rivians-network/

The long range Teslas can charge 41 miles an hour on fastest Level 2 for them. Lucid can do 80 miles(maybe an old Model S with dual chargers can do that. That requires a 60 or 80 amp circuit. So it could be done, with electrical work added to the price of the bigger battery.

If this is something a person truly needs, a PHEV is a more practical solution.

 

So you have 30 hour days?

3 and 4 miles per kWh is inefficient, even in winter with mountain climbing up to the ski areas?

Which is exactly what I'm in the market for.

 

Two separate situations. When I go on a trip like the skiing trip, I don't need to do the same trip the next day. I need to recover the next day.

The 14 hour over-night is after a 10 hour 600 mile drive across the country, which I might have to repeat the next day.

3-4 miles per kWh is absolutely awful.

 

Can you elaborate on this? 3 mi/kWh is fuel-efficiency exceeds the equivalent of 100 mpg. The Prius Prime is similarly efficient around 3-4 kWh/mi. It may not be economical depending on electricity and fuel prices, but it certainly isn't inefficient.

 

our tesla high power wall charger can put out nearly 20kW (19.2) - but manufaturers seem reluctant to consider matching higher power onboard chargers 's to higher power EVSE's. Even a heavier EV can get 55 miles of charge per hr at that rate. A lighter car would be charging @ a over mile a minute! Over night? Piece of cake .
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you can, but most public L2 chargers I've seen can't do it. You can easily by installing the right equipment in your home or office.
Ford and GM have decided to move to the Tesla designed North American Charging Standard. My guess is if Toyota joins then there will be lots of opportunities for their 10 minute charge on the road.

It is a totally restrictive edge case, probably applicable to well under 1% of potential plug-in buyers. They either will take a phev (maybe Toyota can make the Prius prime or rav4 prime less expensive) or have much easier edge cases where they will fly or rent a car when its a hard trip for a bev.

Most bees sold today have 200-400 mile ranges. Those with 400+ miles are expensive. If you can make them less expensive and charge faster with this new "Toyota" battery, then that is where people will stay. There will be some people that pay for this 1500 km vehicle but it will be very expensive and market will likely be small. Still if it works then hopefully the tech will trickle down.

[/quote](I know you have listed a PP and I two hybrids each with a range of around 500. But that trip is maybe 2% of the use cases that people are going to use these vehicles for.)[/QUOTE]
I'm sure it's much less than 2% given the Transportion survey data.

 

I spent a year working on NHTS data. I think what people don't get is that it's the 1% that matters. Are you okay with your car stranding you on 1% of your trips? Of course not. Are you okay with no being able to go on road trips (which are less than 1% of my trips)? Hopefully not. Something like 80% of trips are under 30 miles. Do having 300 mile range is a waste, since it's only used for 1% of the trips, right? All BEVs should have a range no more than a Prius Prime?

Almost all engineering is about edge cases. I do wind energy. You know what we design to? Average wind? No - 50 year extremes. A bridge is designed to hold it's maximum load in a wind storm with snow on the deck. Edge cases are almost all that matter.

I'm up to about 2 dozen trips taken in my Prius Prime (since 2017) that could not have been done in a Model 3 long range. Yet 80% of my trips are on my e-bike.

Edge cases are what matter.

 

You worked there but did not understand the data then I guess. I don't know.

My BEV has never stranded me. I am also a private pilot. I never flew into storms ;-). I was trained to do it, but I also knew my skills were not as good as some pilots and the plane was not as safe in storms. Was I ok flying without the confidence to fly into storms instead of delaying or going on a bigger safer plane? I certainly was.

Please don't misinterpret my posts. It just makes you look foolish.

People rent cars, some bevs come with car rentals. I have borrowed pick up trucks and SUVs, I did not need to own them. The rest of your post ignored that I said most bevs in my post are 200-400 miles and that is fine for the great majority of buyers. It has been Toyota arguing for short range in phews and bevs, certainly not me or the market. Toyota seems to have changed.

I guess we all need multiple vehicles because they are mission critical and transportation is impossible to rent. Applying the wrong question will give you the wrong answers. A lot of people need awd, towing capacity, a large bed, lots of internal storage. Does that mean most people need a SUV and a pick up truck?

The grid is mission critical. Bridges are mission critical. Vehicles are not, otherwise most cars would have been pulled off the road. T
There are easy work arounds, and engines brake down much more often than motors and batteries.