Toyota questions hybrid approach

tomdeimos said: "Also if a regular model is discounted I would think customers would demand that for the hybrid version also or it would be like paying way over list for the hybrid portion."

Apparently, Ford does not agree with you. If you listen to the fine print in the ad blitz for the "Employee Discount for Everyone" campaign, you'll discover it does not apply to the Escape Hybrid and to several of their pickup truck lines.

--
Vince

 

By all means, let's rathole on which market was cited, and ignore the general question of whether hybrid drives are a passing fad.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(richard schumacher\";p=\"115364)</div>

OK, that's a good question. But let's ask it another way: what would cause growth of hybrid cars to stall?

My submissions:

• Cost of gas comes dramatically down
• Cost of hybrid is perceived to be too expensive over "equivalent non-hybrid"
• Alternative technology appears that provides equivalent or better benefits (in gas mileage and emissions), at equivalent or cheaper prices.
• Hybrids really are just a fad -- gas mileage and low emissions aren't why people are buying them, they think Priuses are "cool".
  • 
    
    Then, the question is: which of these is likely?
    
    I'd say (1) is not likely at all. (3) is always possible some time in the future, but from what I've read, I think it would be (at least) 5 years out.
    
    (4) is possible, but Priuses are still selling really quickly. Maybe this needs to be asked in 1-2 years -- it's still too soon to tell.
    
    (2) -- that depends a lot on the buyer and the price. But if Toyota jacked up their hybrid system prices -- really price-gouged them -- I could imagine that happening.
    
    I just know that I'm glad I have a Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26\";p=\"115408)</div>

That makes sense to me. But since I've never been interested in an SUV, or a Lexus/Acura "luxury"-level car, I admit it's all sort of a mystery to me in the first place.

If I hadn't decided to buy a Prius, I doubt I would have bought anything more expensive than a Mazda3.

 

The next big thing for Toyota on a world-wide basis will be a hybrid version of the Yaris/Vitz/Echo platform. These cars are the #2 seller in Japan and extremely popular in Europe and Canada. Having owned an Echo prior to my Prius I must say it was a great little car. A hybrid should easily be able to get 70-80 mpg with a 1.0 liter engine. This is a vehicle the rest of the world needs and would embrace. SUVs are an American item only and would not be expected to sell well elsewhere.

 

If Prius was just a fad, how would you know it? At some point, it becomes common enough to be considered normal. I see several every single day now, so it is close already. The 2006 model year should push beyond the perceived threshold.

And I doubt Echo (as we know it) would be hybridized. That vehicle size is a perfect candidate for a light-weight body. A conversion to plastic would fill in the rather empty category that Smart is hoping to capture.

 

As I've said before: by selling the HH and the rx400h as
they are being sold, i.e. power wagons instead of a true bid
for fuel economy in larger vehicles, Toyota has totally
screwed the pooch. That's not the way to get
people to start thinking differently about vehicles
and energy.
.
_H*

 

I thought the Echo and Prius use the same engine. So would they not get the same milage? I noticed even the model numbers of the engines are the same. Did they detune the Prius engine to compliment the electric motor?

 

Did Ford do the employee discount for everyone thing also? My understanding was that it was the GM Employees Discount that was being opened up to everyone. Oh well, I'm sure GM's big sales campaign caused the other auto makers to come up with some kind of buyer incentives too, just don't think Ford would call it the same thing because I'm sure GM trademarked it.

 

Apologies. I guess I was wrong. Even Chrysler apparently was offering the employee discount to everyone. Although it is a month old, I found this article: http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000403049447/

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jerry P\";p=\"115439)</div>

It's possible that Toyota already is selling this, or something like it, in Japan. Apparently, they have something like 5-6 Japan-market-only hybrids on sale right now.

 

In a number of posts above it was suggested that the hybrid Lexus, Ford and Highlander are not selling like the Prius because they are only slightly more valuable than the non hybrid versions of those cars.

But isn't it more fair to compare these 3 SUV hybrids not with the V6 version, but with a theoretical V8 version?

Now this is not easy as some of these vehicles don't come in both versions. But according to the Toyota Web site, the 4Runner V8 is about $2000 more than the V6. So this suggests a comparison point for the v6 versus v8.

And isn't the hybrid version of these cars really about power and not economy? Therefore, I would suggest that the best way to compare the price of these SUVs is not to compare the V6 non hybrid to a V6 hybrid, but to compare the cost of a mythical V8 version of these vehicles, to the V6 hybrid version. Thus, rather than costing $4000 dollars more, the car really only costs $2000 more.

And even with the MPG, comparison to the V6 non hybrid is not a fair comparison. It needs to be compared to the "mythical" V8 version. Thus, the MPG is not just mildly better, it's phenomenally better.

However, my arguments above only hold true if these hybrids really do have the power more like the V8. Does anyone know about this comparison.

And isn't the Lexus selling well? I thought there was still a long waiting list for them?

 

The bottom line is no one knows what the public is going to buy.

Weren't there plenty that thought the Prius would tank? Wasn't the success of the 04 redesign a surprise?

And no one expected oil to go over $60 a barrel.

No one is going to know what is going to sell until the Toyota Camry Hybrid comes out. If they're able to rein in costs a bit and if the price of gas is over $3 a gallon by that time....it may sell quite well.

As long as their are waiting lists, as long as you're paying MSRP or over, I'd say they're successful. Toyota can't make them fast enough.

I'm not sure how reliable the marketing predictions are from an engineer in product development. I'd like to hear what the marketing guys have to say.

 

If you want to compare to a mythical V8 you should not forget the synnergy drive. The closest equivalent to that would be like a 5-7 speed automatic transmission option.

Then with the 4 wheel drive option there's built in advantages of not needing a drive shaft and another differential that you can't get in a gas car at all.