Toyota Prius c: 53 MPG city / 46 MPG Hwy; Under $19,000

Thanks for the correction. I was recalling it from my memory incorrectly (should have looked it up).

Anyway, my point still stands with the great difference in efficiency.

 

We all agree on that. We don't agree on using that narrow measurement boundary as a standard and claim his Volt is more efficient. I disagreed so I replied why Prius c is better when looking at the bigger picture. I see it as a constructive discussion.

P.S: How many Volt owners are going to come here to brag about running their Volts with fossil fuel electricity?

 

A power plant, even burning fossil fuels, is far more efficient than the home generator you proposed. Night time charging of EVs might even increase their off peak efficiency.

The average is getting better, and likely improved since most of those studies were done. While it might not be cleaner now, based on the average, than the c, it has the potential to improve. The Prius is about moving forward, but its emissions are stuck were there at like every non plug in on the road.

Depending on trim, the Volt is about 100 pounds heavier than the Lexus HS 250h. The T shaped battery case is a hold over from the EV1, and likely helps with stiffening the chassis and crash worthiness. It did rate higher than the Prius in front safety, were some of the tests simulate head on crashes with a vehicle of the same weight.

How many owners of Leafs and Prius PHVs will? Many have preordered the PHV. How many of that group bothered to find out their electric mix? How many people care about the difference in environmental costs for refining sweet crude, sour crude, tar sands, oil shale, or converting coal to gasoline?

 

Yep the US grid is 68% fossil fuel, but that means your 32.8% only applies to that fraction. The rest does not use fossil fuel.

If you want to make approximations based on overall efficiency you'll need to use a more realistic overall efficiency number like 54% You can estimate this yourself from the data from EIA (e.g. from
Electric Power Monthly in particular
http://205.254.135.7/electricity/monthly/excel/epmxlfile1_1.xls

If you can use the raw power output / total energy in fossil fuels or use
fuel efficiently ratings to mix them

(32.8% * fossil fuel generated electricity (2.151 Billion KWH)
+ 1.004 Billion KWH (other sources using no fossil fuel) )
/ total (2.151+1.004)
= 54.18%

Using the total efficiency let's revisit your MPG(e) vs MPG comparison..

94 * .54 = 50.76 MPGe using total generation to wheels for EV
50 * .83 = 41.5 MPGe using wells to wheels for HV.

(Note the above does not address the 8% co-generation numbers which improves the fossil fuel efficiency, but don't need to account for that to show the MPGe for an EV is better).

Of course if one uses all renewable the numbers are even farther in favor of EV.

Very few will brag about that.. most Volt owners here seem to be using non-fossil fuel. If one cares enough to buy the very best, might as well fill it with the best fuel.

Mostly I'm here (and a few other places) to keep the facts straight. I did a lot of research to make my decisions and am just paying it back/forward. I was not pushing the Volt, just defending EV (PHEV/EREV) when people get the facts wrong.

 

EV is more efficient if you do the math correctly, see the post above.

With respect to cleaner you'll have to provide a link to that study as I'm not familiar with that one.

My nightly rate is .049/kwh my mid-peak is .09. My total cost (including infrastructure and green power costs) for a full charge is about $.70 from which I get 35 to 55 miles. (I drive more efficient than most, using 29-31kwh/100m depending on the temps). But I do use some gas so on average my cost-per-mile is a bit higher.

I you want to consider TCO, people should look at thier own and not mine.
Try the calculator/calculations at
A free calculator for Economy, Hybrid and Electric Cars

As they show there, the answer depends very much on your driving mix. For many people the Prius c (not in the examples) will be a clear winner with its lower initial cost. My TCO would have been cheaper if I stayed with my old Honda (long paid off) but TCO is not the only issue.

 

have to disagree: Prius is better but not a replacement for hybrid Camry. Prius C is not a replacement for regular Prius as much as Yaris isn't replacement for Corolla.

IMHO there is no conspiracy, what you see is the result of cost cutting more then anything else. How could they save money? by reducing battery size, by using bin parts. I suspect the decision to go with NZ engine was dictated by costs more then anything else.

You already have tooling, capacity and any "reworks" were done in such way that they did not require much change to manufacturing. Moreover, the "Z" engines are made in Tianjin (China) so cost is probably 20-50% of R engine.

We are lucky C mpg is not worse then GenIII. When Honda put Civic hybrid powertrain in Insight and did the "cost cutting" they did considerably worse.

 

As much as I know, Toyota does not export their Chinese parts.

Not that it matters. Additonally, Toyota's factories in Thailand are much bigger and they also produce Z engines in Japan, as thats what they sell in most of their Japanese cars.

There is also nothing about "bin" parts, Prius C was made to be hybrid from starts, and NZ engine has been "70%" changed from before.

If all they wanted is to save money on production, they would have simply put HSD in Verso-S. But then it wouldnt be the same as what they did with Prius c and it wouldnt sell the same, would it? .

 

The tooling is a big part of it. It's all in the sales numbers.

The Aqua/c is being sold in the biggest hybrid markets. It's the most different but still shares a lot with the Prius.

In Europe, a smaller hybrid market, at the moment, there's the Auris built in an Auris plant, a Yaris built in a Yaris plant.

The low-volume RAV4 EV will be built in a the RAV4 plant in Ontario. Even though it seems odd to build the drivetrain in CA, ship to ON and ship the car back to CA where it will be sold it's much cheaper due to the reduced manufacturing costs.

2010 HCH: 40/45
2010 Insight: 40/43

 

Aqua shares almost nothing with Prius .

it shares platform with Verso-s, and has completely different interior, exterior from it. Other than NZ engine that is 70% different, I dont see what it shares with Prius at all.

 

2006 Insight M/T 48/58/52. Most Gen 1 Insights that I have ever seen have driven by non-hypermilers have 52-53 lifetime FE. But I think the cost cutting + profit seeking that led to the absolute TURD of a Gen 2 Insight was due to not hand-making a 2000 lb car out of aluminum and styling changes (aerodynamics, 4 doors, bigger wheels), rather using a cheaper drivetrain.

I just can't believe that, in 15 years of hybrid production, no one can do better than 52 combined (non-phev).

 

Can you name these changes? It seemed a bad translation and hsd had been changed. 70% would mean new pistons, valves, and cams. Normally when this happens there is a new designation.

 

I am afraid the 32.8% upstream efficiency is for all the electricity, including the renewable sources. You can't assume the renewable and nuclear power sources are 100% efficient. They are not.

Note that 32.8% includes electricity transmission loss to the plug. The 83% efficiency for gasoline refinement also include the transportation to the pump.

Sure.

94 * .328 = 30.83 MPGe using total generation to wheels for Volt in EV mode.
37 * .83 = 30.71 MPGe using wells to wheels for Volt in HV mode.

50 * .83 = 41.5 MPGe using wells to wheels for Prius (c) in HV mode.

Here is the recent DOE well-to-wheel analysis that I was referring to.

Now, consider the big 265 MPG that your Volt display on your screen. In reality, you are getting 31 MPGe WTW with average electricity or average gasoline.

50 MPG Prius would get 42 MPGe WTW using average gasoline.

 

You made good points in that post. Yes, I agree the electricity should get cleaner but cleaner electricity also cost more. I think plugins are the future if they are done right.

Volt has the wrong blend of EV and HV for now and the near future. It is double the price of Prius c. Volt's emissions are higher. Volt's battery intrude into the cabin. Volt weights more than Equinox SUV. It needs to be plugged in. 10 hours charge could be drained in 15 minutes. Faster charger cost more. Etc...

Comparing to a discontinued vehicle would not make Volt look better. HS250h is a faster luxury brand hybrid with 5 seats.

Leaf and Prius PHV are more efficient with the electricity and they are midsize cars. If EPA gives out Energy Star stickers for the plugin cars, Volt will not get one for sure. It consumes too much electricity for a compact car because it carries too much baggage.

For someone shopping for an efficient commuter compact car, Prius c is a clear choice in my opinion. You don't need to plug it in. There is no plugin premium. Cleanest emission. No cargo or passenger room to compromise. No clutches. No battery coolant. Proven design.

Sure, the upstream emission for gasoline may get higher in the future (10+ years?) but we are not there yet. This transition will affect how much we blend electricity with gasoline in every new generation of the plugin cars. Until then, no-plug hybrids will remain the best choice.

 

Where has the number been released for pure EV? I've only seen the 84mpge. While that may be its overall efficiency for a given trip, what are the specifics for the trip? We can't compare it to the 63mpge number on the 2011 Volt window until we know those details.

Since the EPA has dropped that mixed trip/mode number from the sticker, and Toyota has only released that 84mpge and the gas only numbers, I'll believe the 84mpge refers to EV mode until the official numbers are released. While close, that's still lower than the Volt's 93mpge.

 

I was using Leaf and Prius PHV JC08 cycle numbers and how Leaf compares to the Volt in EPA cycle.

 

JC08 has consistantly shown itself to be a poor indicator of performance on US roads or in the EPA. The prius c significantly outperforms the prius liftback on JC08, but only is 4% better in EPA city, and no better at all combined. I would assume that the Toyota estimate of 87mpge is more accurate for the upcoming prius phv. If you believe that 94mpge is less than 50 mpg because you choose a different conversion factor for kwh electricity equivalance, then the prius c would in your world more efficient than the prius phv. The prius phv will of course outperform it on JC08.

 

Two understated sentences with profound impact.

You don't plug in, Volt delivers just ordinary traditional efficiency. That's not the case with Prius. Upon depletion, it's still delivers outstanding efficiency.

As for that 15 minutes, the reality of how quickly the entire EV range can be consumed when flying down the highway will cause a stir... once people discover how much better that same electricity can be used blended instead.
.

 

Prius PHV 87 MPGe is a blend of gas and electric. If it were only with electricity like Volt's 94 MPGe, I would agree.

Prius PHV would use the battery mainly in the city where it is slowly drained. That's where using the electricity makes more sense.

 

Again, I think people are missing my point. I never said there NEEDED to be a single Prius model that absolutely outshines the others. INFACT a large part of my speculation is from Toyota's P.O.V. there absolutely can't be a Prius that outshines the others...exactly the opposite idea.

Also, I said, Toyota has done a good job of definition based on utility and useage.

I am purely speculating.

I guess to simplify, part of my reaction is thus. It's kinda like when Honda came out with the new Insight, my reaction was Nice Product..but not a swing for the fences, redefine the market type of product.

I guess I was kinda hoping if Toyota was to build the smallest Hybrid with the Highest MPG's it would be more of a game changer.

I think it will be a great product anyway. Perhaps hugely succesful.

But it clearly isn't a product that is significantly raising the bar as far as MPG's. And I think, that unfortunately is by marketing design.

 

USB, I assume that by liking john's post you agree with it. And both of you seem to think that 5 seats are important and you would never recharge the prius phv, and not much else matters. You both also seem to think that electricity is dirtier than gasoline. So again, in your opinion is the phv a waste because it carries all that extra weight than the prius c? Is it way to expensive? Have you now believing the kool aid you drank and want the prius c instead, it does do much better than the prius in JC08 which does better than the prius phv if you discharge its batteries first.

Now why again do you want to compare JC08 numbers on one car to EPA numbers on a different one? That seems downright idiotic to me.

It was recently reposted the top gear video of an M3 getting better gas mileage than a prius. It was of course the truth, and absolutely unlikely use of the prius at the same time.

I have a different opinion that it is a good idea to substitute electricity for gasoline, and the epa conversion is if anything low. That people will actually recharge their phvs. But the prius phv is much more expensive than the prius c, so the prius c represents a better value proposition for many people. It is at a price point that lowers the hybrid premium, and makes conventional hybrids easier to sell. The prius phv on the other hand is for initial adopters that like toyota or like the prius and want to use less gas and are willing to pay for the privilege.