Toyota Prius c: 53 MPG city / 46 MPG Hwy; Under $19,000

79g/100km would confirm this, as a direct scaling of the Prius FE (25.6km/l) gives the Yaris h a calculated FE of 28.8km/l
However. If I know Toyota right, "less than 80g/100km" can mean anything above 70g/km and thus up to 32.5km/l.

Right now I'm thinking of the c/Yaris h as a replacement for the old family car, which is in Denmark. The traditional gauges, low amount of storage spaces, large rear end, long front, boring exterior, high weight and plain interior makes the new Yaris a hard sell, so I'm counting on the appeal of efficiency and transmission. It would be even better if I could my hands on a Prius c as it doesn't have many of the disadvantages of the new Yaris.

 

Pretty good milage from the CTh (way better than EPA). You are clearly an efficient driver and would probably get high 40s CS and High 40s EV range in a Volt (like I do).

I've seen you post multiple times now the MPGe is political. I'd like to hear how you think MPGe is computed and why you think its political.

 

For someone looking for a compact efficient commuter car, Prius c, Volt and a non-hybrid compact will be on the list.

The other plugins you mentioned are mid-size vehicles.

 

I doubt the halogen headlight, torsion beam rear suspension and Chevy badge will take away the sales. Volt's underlying platform is an econobox.

 

Here is my take on it. MPGe is just a partial view of the energy efficiency because it does not include the generation of electricity (30% efficient). Refining gasoline is 83% efficient.

Once both fuels are at the "consumable" level (from plug or pump), the inefficiencies gets reversed (electric being superior).

If you take account of the total energy efficiency, both are about the same. Yet, the electric operation seem more efficient from looking at the EPA MPGe. It is indeed MPGi (in-equivalent).

 

I think of it more as a way to make the unit accessible to the public.
It's like when the industry came up with the notion of horse powers. You need a very special horse for it to output exactly 1hp, but the use of HP instead of kw made it much more accessible to the commoner who was used to horses and had a much better intuition of HP than kw. Similarly, MPG-e is very hard compare to real MPG, but it makes much more sense to talk about MPG-e than kw/km when you want to sell the car to the public.

That some people insist on comparing MPG directly with MPG-e is a minor side effect that should be compared to the greater good of introducing EVs to the public.

 

I'm afraid you have it the other way around, the "Prius c" will be quite popular in the NA, it's cheap (< $19k), and for combined cycle and some hypermiling gets stellar results (not for pure highway flyers mode though), the same for Japan where it's being manufactured (Aqua). On the other hand, as posted in other threads already, the EU land strategy is to produce half-size smaller/dull econobox interior Yaris hybrid in France (in their existing ICE ver. plant assembling this latest Yaris platform). While "c" has not been destinated for Europe originally at all. Because it would be too costly to import, besides there is that chopped off Prius called Auris hybrid manufactured in the UK to fill that void, which is a flop btw. Perhaps they will introduce "c" later either via that british or french assembly plant.

Yaris hybrid is priced ~ equaly to model "c" on the NA market, "strangely and to the horrors of many", perhaps even above that, in any case, be very glad hybrids are so cheap in the NA market..

 

Americans are also cheap bastards. This is the ideal courier car, student car, high annual mileage car, etc. Anyone looking at a subcompact/compact sedan is a potential purchaser. That niche is bigger than you think.

 

I can agree some people's list will look like that.. but such people would not likely have bought the Volt I think too many Americans "stretch" to make their car choices and many would be better off with a low-priced car like the Prius C. I can see some driving the Volt hoping they can afford it then doing the math and choosing a Prius C over say the Cruize or a Crysler 200. My point was it probably would not have been a Volt sale either way; if they could really afford the Volt they would not have been looking downward at the C, but upward at Lexus, BMW, Accura or others.


The volt is < 1cu.ft from being midsize and more importantly when ranked against mid-sized "near luxury" cars is placed first this year (and second last year). Best Upscale Midsize Cars Rankings | U.S. News Best Cars
Rankings were

1. Volt
2. Audi A4
3. Buick Regal
4. Infiniti G
5. Cadillac CTS
6. Mercedes Benz C-Class
7. Volvo S60
8. Hyundai Genesis
9. Lexus ES
10. Audi A5
11. VW CC
12. Acura TL
13. BMW 3-series
14. Lexus IS

Back in October it was reported that the BMW 3 series, the Audi A4 and the Volkswagen Jetta were traded in for about 6% of Volt sales. (Prius was #1 trade in at 7%). This it is not just ranking but harder data that shows the Volt is competing with them.

The USnews ranking of prius is 12th in the basic midsize (not upscale) category.

 

Simple really. MPG(e) ignores upstream emissions.

A clue to anybody not blinded by ideology is that GHG lifecycle emissions (let along tailpipe defined pollutants) are higher in a Volt in EV mode than a Prius by EPA, or my CTh in my hands. I have posted before the picture of a RAV EV draggging a petrol generator behind it. Do you *really* think that setup has a better MPG rating than a straigh RAV ? By MPG(e) it does, because the petrol use is ignored. LOL.

Asinine, really. Read how the DOE calculates gasoline equivalents for CAFE purposes for alternative vehicles which includes EVs. The calculation starts with national powerplant efficiencies, refinery costs, auto energy consumption per mile ... and then throws in a ~ 3 fold multiplier if the car is "alternative."

This is a good explanation from Forbes

And from Wikipedia, the calculations for alternative fuel CAFE:
-----

Petroleum-equivalency factor (PEF) — a CAFE metric
In 2000 the United States Department of Energy (DOE) established the methodology for calculating the petroleum-equivalent fuel economy of electric vehicles based on the well-to-wheel (WTW) gasoline-equivalent energy content of electricity (Eg). The methodology considers the upstream efficiency of the processes involved in the two fuel cycles, and considers the national average electricity generation and transmission efficiencies because a battery electric vehicle burns its fuel (mainly fossil fuels) off-board at the power generation plant.[8] This methodology is used by carmakers to estimate credits into their overall Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) for manufacturing electric drive vehicles.[7]
The equations for determining the petroleum equivalent fuel economy of electric vehicles are the following:[8]
PEF = Eg * 1/0.15 * AF * DPF
where:
PEF = Petroleum-equivalent fuel economy
Eg = Gasoline-equivalent energy content of electricity factor
1/0.15 = "Fuel content" factor or incentive factor. DoE selected this value to keep consistency with existing regulatory and statutory procedures, and to provide a similar treatment to manufacturers of all types of alternative fuel vehicles
AF = Petroleum-fueled accessory factor
DPF = Driving pattern factor
The gasoline-equivalent energy content of electricity factor, abbreviated as E.g., is defined as:
Eg = gasoline-equivalent energy content of electricity = (Tg * Tt * C) / Tp
where:
Tg = U.S. average fossil-fuel electricity generation efficiency = 0.328
Tt = U.S. average electricity transmission efficiency = 0.924
Tp = Petroleum refining and distribution efficiency = 0.830
C = Watt-hours of energy per gallon of gasoline conversion factor = 33,705 Wh/gal
Eg = (0.328 * 0.924 * 33705)/0.830 = 12,307 Wh/gal
PEF = Eg * 1/0.15 * AF * DPF = 12,307 Wh/gal/0.15 * AF * DPF
PEF = 82,049 Wh/gal * AF * DPF
The petroleum-fueled accessory factor, AF, is equal to 1 if the electric drive vehicle does not have petroleum-powered accessories installed, and 0.90 if it does.
----

Notice the "incentive factor."

 

It sounds like you have routes that are great for high mileage in city driving. Its very different for most US drivers. Car and driver got the same mileage in an ancient 1L geo metro as in a gen III prius, but it was because they accelerated the prius much faster, because they could. Crash standards and emissions requirements have made it impossible to build something like the metro as cheap and light. I sometimes grab a car2go (smart fourtwo) because we have special city parking spaces for them. Smart won't bring over the 0.8L diesel, and its likely the right decision. The ones we have don't like our hills or on-ramps very well. I get much worse than EPA (which is lower than european urban cycle) in my prius. People buy smart cars here, and used to by geo metros because they are cheap.

So I'm curious, on your routs in the city, what does the prius get? Do you accelerate as slowly as you do in your 1L?

 

What? 2010 Auris hybrid sales were above projections and European Toyota hybrid sales increased in 2011. Unless the Prius has had a spectacular 2011 the Auris hybrid must still be selling relatively well.

 

Yep, and the petrol rafinery runs on magic smoke from unicorns, not on electricity right? Sorry this mpg debate is a bit silly.

Many of the first adopters use their Volts or full electrics as leverage/mutlipliers, e.g. they already own or want to immediately install family home sized PV system, or they live in hydro country like Wash. state with solid off peak charge electricity rates.. That' some severe cut into personal expenditures/dependencies and esing preasure on the US oil imports. The only question is could it be scaled up to larger chunk of the society?

Ever seen the Auris hybrid close enough? The trunk is a joke (as the entire car). For almost the same price as Prius geting crippled econobox in disguise, that's the deal of century, right? Yes, some people were bamboozled in the introductory years, also waiting for the GENIII Prius played a role (related to delayed purchase effect).

 

The point of MPGe is about the vehicle's use of fuel. If we are talking about the efficiency of the vehicle, MPGe makes perfect sense. I said the Volt was more efficient, which it is.

If you want to take about the efficiency of power generation than you have to specify the source and mix. Coal (33% efficiency) is only 46% of US power generation. Your computations using just coal efficiencies are meaningless.

Electricity generation efficiency depends on your source of power.
What is the "efficiency" of wind (my primary source) or Solar? Hydro?
Nuclear?

Averages don't really work there as its actually regional sources/mixes and personal choices. I can choose my power source and keep it clean. Most purchasers of gas cannot. I pay for wind power that meets or exceeds my total household usage. I'm working to try to get a neighborhood solar garden built too.. and my car can drive from power from either.

And if you want to consider full generation, need to consider the mix and sources there too. Refining gasoline from good sources may be 83% efficient and from bad sources (such as tar sands) much lower. And your efficiency data mentioned for gasoline is wells-to-wheels ignoring other costs (such actual developing the wells, lives for protection, environmental impacts/costs such as the spills).

As you may know Canada is our largest source of imported oil, and it dominates the Rocky mountain oil supply to refineries. Canadian Tar sands recovery is about as energy intensive as coal mining, and then one has to separate the tar/oil from the sand and clean up the water used in the process. However, current practices place the energy costs of mining "preprocessing" the tar sands outside of the well-to-wheels computations.

Most of the "gas" in the Rockies comes from tar sands, so I have the choice of dirty oil or clean renewable electricity.


If you want to consider all externalities (from exploration to wheels),
I prefer MPFD (Miles per fuel dollar) as the market has already priced in the costs of production (everything before wheels) into an understandable unit, $$. My Volt in the past 90 days has been running about $.024/mile or about 41MPFD. What efficiency are you getting from your Prius.. about 14MPFD?

 

If your fuel came directly from aliens orbiting above, straight to your battery, I would have no problem with MPG(e).

How come my Prius does not gain an MPG(e) boost from the fact that 28% of torque supplied by the ICE is electric ? Clearly the motive fuel is pure, clean electric.

The notion that MPG(e) shows a car's energy efficiency is BS too. If you want to ignore the cost of generating electricity fuel, then do the same in a Prius and ignore the ICE: the car will go about 50 miles from the ~ 11 kwh sent down the drivetrain, for an efficiency of ~ 220 wh/mile.

 

It's not the ideal student car, since a more basic AT subcompact can be bought for $15,000. But for people who would want a better equipped car, AT+C/C+A/C, the difference is smaller

For comparison you might want to consider the Honda Insight.

In the 14 months before the quake in March 2011 that hit supply, the subcompact Honda Insight had average monthly sales of 1731. You'd think that wouldn't bode well for the Prius c, but the Insight:
- is rated 41/44
- has a low rear roof.
- is from a manufacturer with a poor reputation for battery longevity and a worse reputation for their response to the problems.
- is $20,000 if you want cruise control.

In addition to all of that, fuel costs are now consistently higher than they were during the 14 months to March 2011. At EPA combined rating and the $3.469 paid for my last fill-up, the Prius c has a 1.2c/mile combined advantage over the Insight, or $120 every 10,000 miles.

As long as Toyota don't screw up pricing with an expensive forced upgrade to get cruise control the price difference would be less than $4,000 to $4,500 over an AT+C/C+A/C subcompact and less for a hatchback.

For those couriers and high mileage drivers you mention it will certainly be a target, but the narrowed price gap would make it a possible buy for those shopping above the base who simply want to reduce gasoline consumption or hedge against rising prices.

Even without further increases in gasoline prices I would expect typical sales of a $19,999 c between 3,000 and 4,000 per month and the c gives Toyota hybrids from B to D ready for a surge in gasoline prices.

 

The Prius drives on another continent, so I can't compare the cars neck to neck... but this will be possible once I get my hands on the c or Yaris h. I have spend a lot of time trying to optimise the FE of the Yaris (a family tradition) and it differs from other cars because of its unique small engine. Here are some general good pointers.

- Accelerate fast. The 1L doesn't go into lean burning mode when accelerating fast, so this can be done without fearing any hits in FE.
- When others use 3rd. gear at 45km/h, I go for 5th and down shift only when necessary.
-The low friction in the small engine allows you to coast toward a red light without losing much speed when in 5th. gear. It is almost Prius like in this regard.
-Go fast through roundabouts when it is safe to do so (they are very prevalent in Denmark). This minimises the time spent on accelerating and braking.
- Turn all electrical equipment off. The small engine suffers noticeably even when you use the rear window defogger.
- Keep at least .23 bar in front and .21 in the rear tires. (Factory recommended)

It was the safest supermini around when it was new, but crash testing standards have moved a lot since 1999.

Still. It is one of my all time favourite cars and my choice if I were to enter a hypermiling competition (where you win by beating the official numbers)

 

MPGe is about vehicle fuel use efficiency.

Up stream GHG emissions are not about efficiency, they are about carbon and other green house gases. If you want to argue about MPgc (mile per gram carbon) that is a different thing and different argument. When all fuel was petrol-based gallons and grams were more interchangeable. Now they are not. But if you want to reduce GHG, use a renewable energy source to drive and ignore the "average mix" -- do you really want to just be average.




The Forbes article, like usb ignores that coal is only a fraction (46%) of our power. Its argument about apples and oranges then became apples and orange peal. I'm sure one could devise lots of different fudge factors to related electricity usage to carbon or total up stream efficiency but that would need to consider the source of power. Again averages are less interesting there.


The rest of your arguments are CAFE, which I agree is VERY political, but that is not MPGe.

 

Lexus ES rated above IS?... I suspect there might be flaws in using this list to compare the vehicles. But if having Volt on the top on this particular list is what floats your boat, then by all means let it.

Still... ES > IS

 

Auris Hybrid makes no sense to me due to the pricing that is very similar to Prius, with Prius being better car.

BUT

Auris Hybrid sells great. They will sell same amount of Auris hybrids as Prius's in Europe for 2011, according to Toyota.

edit: actually Auris Hybrid outsold Prius. Beats me why . I guess it is probably cheaper in some markets than here in Eastern Europe.