Featured Toyota North American CEO to dealerships: "Stop delivering Mirai"

We (some of us) know that a FCV should really be a FCPHEV in terms of technology.

Put in a bigger battery like a Volt, and have a smaller H2 tank with a plug. Solves the problem with refueling for short trips and gets a backup power plant. Just ask Volt owners how that works. No... these pro-FCV people has to bad mouth EV and make sure they use as small a battery as possible to not be any form of EV.

AustinGreen... what is your opinion about a FCV with a plug? I ask you since you seem to be someone with an independent mind, instead of being a fanboy.

 

sounds expensive?

 

Andhydrous ammonia is low pressure only when compared to hydrogen or CNG. It will still require a pressure vessel for the fuel tank, which will put design contraints on the car's space usage. Not as bad a hydrogen tank on a FCEV, but it is still there. Ammonia is a nasty gas above -28F, but any leaks are easy to detect without the cost of sensors.

On the plus side, it can burn in an ICE. So cheaper vehicles can be made available to support the infrastructure while the costs of FCEVs come down.

A plug in FCEV could be expensive, but the fuel cell can be downed sized to offset the cost of the battery, and it would have been eligible for a tax credit from the beginning. The design may have ended up more REX, like the i3 with range extender, than EREV, like the Volt, but I doubt CARB would have insisted that its performance be hobbled as they did for the i3 REX.

The real issue for a PIH2FCEV would likely be in packaging the fuel cell, large battery, and hydrogen tanks into a car.

Fuel cells have potential, but the costs for using elemental hydrogen for the fuel are high. Infrastructure will cost more for handling it safely, and the fuel tanks add weight while being bulky. Batteries add weight to long range BEVs, but they can be packaged out of the way.

 

But I'm NOT talking about "The Guv-rn-ment", I'm talking about the original post, which is about Toyota dealerships stopping delivery of the Mirai.

As far as congress approving more money to build hydrogen refueling centers?
Over the many decades of my life, I've seen so many resources go towards things I liked and approved of, as well as things I thought the government shouldn't be spending resources on.

To me, investment into hydrogen refueling centers, is a million miles away from a "sin". There are far, far more frivolous and worse things our congress could decide to spend money on.

To me, I can't afford a Mirai if I wanted one. Regardless of a smattering of past attempts, I still see hydrogen fuel cell vehicles and technology in it's commercial infancy.

Therefore I don't hate it. I don't root against it.
Will it succeed or fail in the exact form it is in today?

I agree it's an enormous challenge for Toyota. But once again, I applaud them for the attempt.

This is an interesting thread to me, with the revelation of many of the specifics of why many of you think Hydrogen Fuel Cell won't work, at least in it's current form.

It's not that I necessarily disagree. It's just that I see the future of transportation, automobiles and personal and private mobility as very much in flux. I believe challenge and even failure today doesn't necessarily mean permanent failure.

Whatever happens with the Mirai? Toyota and the entire automotive industry will learn from it.

 

If it wasn't to slow down plug-in sales and get government incentives, what was the purpose of Toyota's claims?

No you can't pretend that claims about renewable hydrogen, and easy refueling, and being sold out, had nothing to do with these other things.

I'd like some honesty from those corporations asking for bigger and bigger corporate hand outs. When they lie, why pretend they haven't.

Yes there was solyndra that seemed more fuelish. There are those nascar pavements, and lets not start on all the giveaways in the farm bill, with all these presidential candidates falling overthemselves promising things for iowa for a primary, when they are bad for the country. But why defend any of the corporate welfare?

LIke I said I'm in favor of a test, whether it shows people like the cars or not. I just don't like the crony capitalism of hand picked vendors that look bad on paper and aren't delivering getting more money approved while they fail to deliver. Its like we are rewarding failure.

Who said I was routing against it? Lets do a test in southern california. But why let the car companies hand pick the vendors they like to build the infrastructure. Why these small renewable stations if you are just seeing if hydrogen will work? Why all the extra costs. Do fcv really need $13K check for foreign corporations without means testing in a time when all the american manufacturers rightly said they aren't ready? Do they need 5 bonus zev credits because they are more convenient to fill than phevs and bevs, when clearly they are not?
Don't you think they should have to do something before we cut them another check?

I'm rooting for sucess, not failure, but I can't help but see solyndra mistakes in choosing first element. Maybe if we cut solyndra a bigger check they would still be in business.

Applaud them all you want, just don't let their PR and lobbying machine work on you to believe somehow its better for the US, easier to refuel, or less expensive to build with infrastructure than things like the tesla S or volt or leaf. Why spend more tax payer money per vehicle to import these vehicles beyond a test. Remember since congress aquiesed to give toyota honda and hyundai more money this year, they have not increased likely vehicles. The money just goes to them as a gift for campaign contributions and lobbying.

 

that will be a good collectible car indeed as they will probably pull a plug on it soon. unfortunately, most of the cars will end up crushed just like the EV1 and RAV4EV.

 

I thought all the cars were leased because the hydrogen was included. I don't expect any to make it to the used car market.

 

Cars bought also get free hydrogen for 3 years.

 

The control electronics, fuel cell and tank and other expensive parts are careful removed and shipped to Japan for "recycling." The shell is recycled. Then a couple of months later, a brand new fool-cell car arrives to begin the CARB fool-cell cycle again.

Bob Wilson

 

A slightly larger battery is a "mere drop in the well" when you're at this stage; no new tech needed, groundwork has all ready been done, and parts are on the shelves. Just do it.

 

I actually saw a blue one being driven with CA plates in Playa Vista, so they are out there.

 

why do you suppose they aren't, no government incentive$?

 

The hydrogen tanks take up too much space.

 

Inside EV wrote this so called news. You think they may be bias?? For a Toyota based following, it sure has a lot of haters for Toyota.

Hydogen is here and it will be here in the long run. You don't agree with it, then don't drive one.

EV is not for everyone, let the consumer decide which vehicles works best for them. I applaud Toyota for taking the risk in hopes of providing drivers with an alternative to ICE and EV.

 

I think the "hate" comes from Toyota's lack of plug in electric offerings.

Well it's not really here, considering California was supposed to have over 100 stations by now, yet it only has 3, which don't even seem to be always operational.

Toyota sold what, 72 Mirai in 2015? So yes, the consumer is deciding.

 

Not sure where you got 100 stations should be built at this time, they are in the process of building them and have even set up dealers with refueling abilities. Toyota sold out all 300 Mirai for 2015.Don't forget the car only came out around July of 2015. Also, Toyota is deciding on who is getting a Mirai, not the possible consumer.

 

It was paraphrased from ward's and ward's original article is in the OP.
Lentz Tells Some Dealers Don’t Deliver Mirai | Alternative (EVs, HEVs, FCVs) content from WardsAuto
When you say you are sold out, but you don't deliver even half of what you forecast, then the auto press is going to try to ask questions as they did, and get the why your story doesn't add up. The first chink in the hydrogen is here and we are sold out came in wards in July.
Toyota: 600 Requests for Mirai, Refueling Woes to Be Expected | Technology content from WardsAuto

Which in essence says that toyota's sold out language really is for hand raisers, and they don't really report which are serious and which ones live where the hydrogen is being built.

Toyota in july pretty much said they were deeply involved with building the infrastructure. They picked who taxpayers are funding. I don't think 72 additional fcv is very much to ask, so obviously toyota's choices for infrastructure and the ease which they claim it can be built are in question.

10,000 psi Hydrogen as automotive fuel is questionable and expensive. I would say the odds are strongly against it working in the US as a national fuel. Toyota's difficulty in delivering promised vehicles, and their chosen vendors difficulty of providing stations should make anyone pause and rethink those hydrogen promises. This is from wards just a year ago
Toyota Seeking More Mirais for U.S. Market | NADA Convention and Exposition content from WardsAuto

Just a year ago the infrastructure with heavy involvement from toyota was coming a live, and they were going to blow away their sales estimates, and maybe build national infrastructure in only 10 years. Instead we get only 6 retail stations out of a promised 44, 0 renewable retail stations out of a promised 46%, and 72 vehicles delivered out of a we will do better than 200. Promises of a national hydrogen system in the US are severely in doubt, and yes as a bonus more federal money was approved based on the hype in janauary for federal fcv subsidies and federal hydrogen subsidies.

Well that isn't what toyota has been saying. They have been saying fcv are better than plug-ins and that the tax payer should give them more. The consumer pretty much has given a meh to fcv. They don't seem to want to take delivery. As oposed to the 16,000 prospects that turned into 72 US deliveries, there are millions of plug-in prospects that turned into 116 thousand plug-in deliveries in the US last year and 447 thousand world wide.

The ones promoting hydrogen right now, are anti-plug-in, this was sort of part of the whole carb plug-in versus fcv regulation. If they put a battery in there it hurts their lobbying, and the mirai looks more like a lobbying project than a real shot at volume zev. The claim is fuel cells will get cheap, and batteries are too heavy.

The mercedes/ford/nissan consortium is next up after honda on a demo fcv. They this group actually likes plug-ins. GM/Honda cooperation seems to like plug-ins too on the car after the clarity II, with gm and honda cooperating on plug-in technology. I would bet one or both of these groups have plug-in prototypes working in the lab right now, and we should see one in the next 5 years.

I don't think you see more government incentives $13000 for hydrogen in the us, $24000 in Japan is quite large, I don't think you add if you add a battery. I can see that crazy large us number dropping though, and if you put in a big battery you need a smaller fuel cell stack for the same power and acceleration even given the battery weight. Adding a plug means less trips to that hydrogen station that may be shut down for maintenance or be really slow.

Sure but the battery can be built into the chassis and not take up anymore. Look at the designs of the model S, i3, and bolt.

 

What they should do is take out the fuel cell and tanks, put in an ICE and a bigger battery and, oh wait....never mind.

 

i'll let dipper and fotomoto tackle this one.

 

Most are just disappointed in Toyota for dropping plug in products; the Rav4 EV is no more, it will be a year before the next Prius plug in with production of the current one stopped, and no news of any other plug in. The "hate" is because Toyota has gone s step further and is using BEV FUD in their advertising.

Where I live, that will be quite easy to do without any hydrogen infrastructure in the foreseeable future.

But hydrogen FCEVs aren't the only potential option out there. Much of the clean and green sources for hydrogen can also give us renewable methane, methanol, and diesel. These have already been shown to work in an ICE car, and they don't need the extensive infrastructure construction that hydrogen does to work across the US.

Then these fuels have already been shown to work with a fuel cell. They need more development to work in a car or truck, but mass H2FCEV is also a long range plan. Until we get the more efficient over ICE FCEVs for these fuels, increased electricification of the fleet, BEVs and PHEVs, will make the inclusion of these renewable fuels in a larger percentage with the current non-renewable ones possible. Once the FCEVs using these fuels come to market, we, hopefully, can go 100% renewable.

The fact that Toyota has to screen potential buyers should clue you in to how limited the refueling infrastructure is.

The Mirai has many of the packaging compromises as the Volt. The skateboard battery layout is great for a BEV. For plugin hybrid, ICE or FCEV, it will require a shift from the traditional layout car in order to not have the exhaust, FCEV still has this, and battery clashing for space. The i3 REX does this by putting the ICE in the rear. It also has a small fuel tank. Europe gets a bigger one, but only a half gallon more.

But a plug in hydrogen FCEV is doable, so I'll amend my statement.
Hydrogen tanks large enough to provide the range for the extra ZEV credits take up too much space to allow a plug in with a 20+mile range.