Featured Toyota going to sell all-solid-state battery EV in 2022

Sure you can get 1.21 Gigawatts (pronounced jig-a-wats) if you remember where lightning strikes. ;-) If you want to refuel like gasoline, you need cities to be able to supply 1.8 GW to the charging stations in a city on demand.

Drysider, exactly we have the tech, but its expensive today. That's why I was talking a couple of decades and probably financial incentives (that is high pricing) to charge fast at peak, low prices to charge at home at night) to manage demand.

I believe superchargers can operate at 120 kw., but mostly work at 90 kw. Perhaps with better cooling and higher voltage we can get to 180 kw. Going 10 times faster will take a much more expensive charging network.

Really if you get battery prices down far enough, and enough cars with the same pack type, swap stations make a lot more sense.

 

you folks are thinking so two thousand teens. we're talking 5 years! just look what toyota did in the last 5 years, you need only look to prime threads.

 

This is one of the occasions where flywheel storage makes a lot of sense.

Bob Wilson

 

Are you implying "past tense" or a future past tense?

 

I was thinking 'future perfect' as in 'Toyota will then have prepared the battery.'

Bob Wilson

 

Toyota's first bev sounds destined for china.

My guess is most north Americans that want a bev will not put Toyota high on their list. Tesla, GM, Nissan, and BMW will likely have a lot of experience making bevs for the market long before Toyota gets its solid state battery right.

 

And that's why VW is pushing 800 volt nominal battery systems, and DC fast charging networks are deploying 1000 V-capable charging hardware (so only a software and maybe a plug update is required to enable it when the cars come out).

One problem is that when you exceed 1000 V actual voltage, the safety requirements get a lot higher.

Local energy storage at the charging sites will also help to spread out the load.

 

Even at 1000 volts a 5 minute recharge will require 720 amps. 720 amps at 1000 volts is a pretty serious system. I have seen the results of 200 amp, 440 volt short circuit and you do not want to be there. Moving 720 kw-h around safely is not easy. As noted by bobwilson, swapping is really the only good option right now. If the batteries are standardized and reasonably light weight, it could be feasible.

 

The problem is, they'll never be standardized, unless lawmakers literally force it.

Automakers can't even get them standardized within their own lineup, much less with other automakers, the machinery is absurdly costly, and then you have the battery ownership billing issues.

The only battery swap network that's demonstrated viability is one that uses 1.3 kWh, human-portable batteries in a scooter. Tesla failed to demonstrate viability, and Renault/Better Place failed to demonstrate viability.

Also, a 5 minute recharge at 1000 volts... how much battery are we talking? Because if the battery capacity can be reduced through improved efficiency, improved regenerative braking, improved aerodynamics, and reduced weight...

 

It also works with propane tanks. I think the standardization will come through the industry groups like the SAE or the electrical folks. If they can at least standardize the connectors, the market will push for standard sized batteries. Swapping a new battery for an unknown quality used one is going to be a problem. There will need to be some thought put into the actual system. Maybe a credit based on the age of the battery or something similar.

 

Or sell the cars without battery, so you get whatever what's given to you at the shop. Obviously you will need one to drive out of the dealership, but that's not part of the car. You can pay per swap, so there is no issue with age... As long as the swapped battery is guaranteed to last a certain capacity, I think it might be OK.

SM-G900I ?

 

Another possibility that might work is, instead of having batteries be swapped on the car, have a battery trailer. That way, you "only" need a moderate power connection (25-50 kW or so, I'd say - the i3 REx has 25 kW from its REx), you can use standardized connection methods, you don't have to worry about packaging and cooling being standardized, and you can get fast swapping.

 

The term solid state usually refers to electronics.
If these batteries are solid state due to their solid electrolyte, what is the term for the current zinc air batteries used in hearing aids? Vapor state batteries??

 

I've heard them referred to as metal-air batteries. These are mechanically rechargeable. In a zinc air battery the oxygen in the air is used to oxidize the metal in the battery producing electricity, then a chemical process outside the battery can be used to reduce the metal. Zinc air batteries typically have a liquid electrolyte as water is part of the reaction. Aluminum air seems the most promising for primary cells for electric cars. The the hydrated alumina, Al(OH)3, can be readily recycled and weight to energy is much better than zinc air. The trick is to wipe the alumina gel of the plates to get them to last longer. The plates could be replaced and gel removed at a recycling facility, then the gel recycled into battery plates or other aluminum products. Water is also consumed in the reaction.

Solid state metal-air batteries are also being researched, as well as electrically rechargeable ones. Toyota's previous statements were that they were working on solid state first, but really considered electrically rechargeable lithium-air batteries as the ultimate car batteries. Aluminum air primary cells have been demonstrated in cars and there are at least 2 heavily funded start ups plus tesla working on this. The idea of one start up, which is working with alcoa on this, is to have a battery last 1000 miles, then recycle the hydrated alumina gel. You could travel with extra plates perhaps and install them yourself, then when convenient drop the gel off at a place that will take it to a recycling facility. The car would probably have at least a small rechargeable battery to provide more instantaneous power and less expensive electricity by plugging in at home.

Agree completely here, but will revise numbers a little bit. 100 miles in say 6.7 minutes plus 3 minutes for conditioning for a 100 mpge vehicle at 300 kwh - 10 minutes for 100 miles, 17 for 200 miles, 23 minutes for 300 miles. The ioniq @ 136mpge would 8 minutes for 100 miles, 13 minutes for 200 miles, etc if the battery were big enough. I think full charge only goes to 80% then slows down on today's lithium ion. Solid state may be able to keep high speed longer.

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Say you have 8 bays that can charge 4 cars at full speed then must slow down, that requires 1.2 MW for the peak, a pretty heafty sum. say you have a battery that can charge all 8 full speed for 10 minutes - 8x10/60*300 kw = 400 KWh battery if it was 1C (400KW power) then you still need a 800 KW line going to the fueling station. It is big, but definitely doable with today's technology.

Absolutely - although I like the idea of JCI's dual battery (lead acid + lithium-ion that fits under the hood). Get the tech for a solid state battery that operates well in heat and cold and you can put it under the hood of a hybrid, freeing up design in the interior. Still the lithium battery in the 2018 camry hybrid le does a pretty good job ;-)

 

Or conceptually ultracapacitors, if they can be made "ultra" enough: Super-low internal resistance on charging.


iPhone ? Pro

 

Tesla demonstrated it to be possible, although not necessarily economical:

iPhone ? Pro

 

To be economical, you need a large number of cars, and a pricing model that charges for pack differential if customer does not come back to swap back the pack.

Let's throw some numbers out there Say that a 100 kwh pack can be charged from 10 to 80 kwh in 20 minutes, and 0-100 kwh in 1 hour. You join the station club for some fee, and get charged 20 cents a kwh during day time, and 5 cents a kwh off hours. At peak the credit card charge would be $14 for that 70 kwh charge or $18 for the partial, divide by 4 if charging at midnight ;-)

Now would you pay $50 to get it to 100 kwh in 2 minutes, or over $30 more than to charge in 20 minutes to an hour? Only a small percentage would, so you need a lot more cars to make battery swap stations worth while. They may be eventually, probably earliest for say electric buses or delivery trucks. Government in Japan and California think this fast change is important, but I don't think it really is.

Yep these will make a lot of sense at charging stations and in smaller battery phevs and even mild hybrids as costs fall. We used a bank of capacitors to provide quick power for some devices in the physics lab at school. Probably a combination of capacitors and batteries in charging stations (batteries because they are cheaper for energy, capacitors for the power).