Toyota’s new Prius model to get record 40 km per liter

I am well aware of issues Mazda ran into with 2.2. Rising oil levels, inability to cope with multitude of different fuel formulations and loosing performance while meeting EPA regulations w/o aftertreatment. There is a long list of design improvements which went into 1.5L to resolve this. It isn't a question of if 1.5D mated with THS will not be efficient, or it would be harder to pass EPA certification. It's a question if Mazda USA will decide if it's worth bringing it to US. So far there is no indication. Perhaps it is completely out of picture due to patent issues.

Also for Japanese many decisions are dictated by local market, so 40km/L (61.2MPG) is a very important milestone.

 

Seems Mazda is doing well in the mpg department without diesel, e.g. cost to drive 25 miles; Compare Side-by-Side

 

don't get me wrong, i love mazda. just that i waited a lifetime for them to get the wankel right.

 

Ah, diesel, where you get to pay 40% more for fuel, get a stinky fillup, and get to buy "emissions fluid" to get rid of that extra cash in your pocket.

And there are still lots of people who want to have diesel?!

 

"Of course! Because they get 40 mpg!

On the freeway that is. But don't look at that funny number under city driving, focus on the 40 mpg! Not quite the Prius mpg, but close enough!

But again, don't compare the Prius city mpg vs the diesel's city mpg. 40 mpg!"

That's pretty much what I see when people say diesels are superior to gas cars in every way. Diesels have their benefits, but they have a lot of drawbacks as well.

 

i hope wxman doesn't see this.

 

I wouldn't be so dismissive.
In 2012 on a trip to Italy we rented diesel Punto. We averaged about 67MPG over 1,500miles trip. It was equipped with 1.3 turbo rated at 85 (95?)HP and the worse MPG we saw was on autostradas, but speed limit on those 130km/h and everyone drives at least 150-160. Car was loaded and most driving was done in countryside with 90kmh limit (still people were driving ~120). Punto is about the size of the C, but over trip like that there's no way I'd come remotely close to matching numbers in C.

 

Isn't mpg measured differently everywhere else but the us? British mpgs rate higher ...

 

Yup. With a diesel you get to spend about twice as much to fix it (if it breaks).

Imperial gallon is about 20% larger than a US gallon. That's the reason for the difference in MPG.

I hear all kinds of stories about how great the mileage is with diesels in Europe. Those cars can't be operated in North America. They are WAY too dirty! Apples to apples please!!

 

No.
Most of the rest of the world uses Metric and it is kilometers per liter and then you do the math to convert.
While there is a "metric gallon" it is almost never mentioned in fuel efficiency measurements.......with good reason.

 

I have now.

As far as France is concerned, they refuse to make a distinction between older (Euro 4 and previous) diesel cars and the newest versions (Euro 6). There also appears to be other sources of air pollution there that apparently aren't being considered...



Two-stroke scooters are big polluters | News24


Green Car Congress: Pollution plumes in Paris air are richer in gaseous aromatic compounds than in LA; gasoline engines main source of VOCs


Also, there was a report released recently (January 2015) that shows that lab animals exposed nearly continuously to concentrated exhaust from a (U.S.) 2007-compliant diesel truck engine showed no signs of any tumors or major health issues of any kind through their normal life spans...


http://www.healtheffects.org/Pubs/Press%20Release%20ACES%202015.pdf

 

Diesel, it's what's for breakfast (sidebar: are you the same wxman as the one at AVS from which I have been banished)?

 

Not sure. AVS? Don't immediately recognize that site.

 

IIRC that rule of thumb is for conventional cars and would not apply to the Prius which has regen braking. I'll guess maybe 4% improvement from weight reduction in the Prius

 

Audi TDI Crosses US On 66 Gallons - HybridCars.com
They didn't hit the Prius's highway rating, but they surpassed theirs while being bigger vehicles with a 3 liter diesel, running under a time limit. Diesels regularly get 10% higher than the EPA rating in users hands while gasoline cars still undershoot it in the real world.

I once had to add some ULSD for my home heater. The smell was no where near what a friend's Rabbit took in the 80's, and was less than gasoline.

For the US diesels have to meet the same emission limits as gas cars, and most exceed them. Manufacturers are also already certifying to tier 3 regulations. Won't see that for gasoline cars until the ULSG starts phasing in a couple of years. I won't hold my breath that the price difference between the two won't shrink then.

DEF is necessary but only adds a cent per mile at most in running costs. Direct Injection gas engines will be needing an exhaust filter to pass emissions in Europe, and should also in the US.

 

And just to drag more controversy into the diesel debate, I -suspect- the French govt. wants to ban diesels because they are loosing road tax. One of the reasons it's so popular in Europe is diesel fuel is subsidized by each govt. to support their farmers. People are all "jumping on that bandwagon" of cheaper fuel. Eliminate diesel cars and you would only have trucks and tractors benefiting from the subsidy. As intended.

As far as how clean diesels are, a couple of years ago one of the makers (VW, Audi?) introduced one "back to America", and when NEW, it just squeaked by California standards. I still wonder if that company might go bankrupt trying to keep them all meeting the standard as they get older (they must do so for some fixed period).

Don't know, don't care. Don't like diesels for many reasons. They have a place, but not, in my opinion, in a car.

 

Diesel prices are generally higher than gasoline in the US in a big part due to the fact that the refineries can export ULSD to Europe. So France and others moving away from it could lead to it getting cheaper here, and the US won't have the legacy issues that Europe has with old, dirty ones if that happens.

The diesel manufacturers appear to be playing it safe in terms of warranty costs by certifying the cars to a lower bin than what their initial test results could get. It's a practice common to all models. The Prius is in a bin 1 or 2 lower in federal states than it is CARB ones. Toyota doesn't want to risk paying for warranty work in states that don't have HOV stickers to help sales or aren't as concerned about pollution.

Something to keep in about diesel emissions tech. Right now, it is about where gasoline emission tech was in the early 1980's. It has the advantage of all the work done with gas systems, but we are still at its point of development where improvements to efficiency and reliability will be quick.

I support diesels because of renewable fuels. Something that will work in a diesel engine with little to no modification seems more likely than with gas.

 

The refineries also make heating oil which is big in the Northeast and very similar to diesel. Europe also doesn't have the significant 18-wheel trucking industry like the US does. So there is a lot of competition for "fuel oil".

The other big news for diesels is the approval of use of dimethyl ether (DME) as a replacement for diesel. Of course it comes from Nat Gas but its actually been around for years.

France and others moving away from it has to do partially with their laws. They don't have any that prohibits one from removing pollution controls from their vehicles like the US. Most diesel buyers remove the pollution controls almost as soon as they get their cars (much like "coal rollers" here). They even have specialty shops that do just that.

 

There's at least one fuel supply company in California which has started selling second-generation biodiesel ("renewable diesel") which can be used in any blend up to 100% in new diesel vehicles, unlike current biodiesel (FAME). It's largely produced from waste fats and oils...

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