"Tookie" Williams, Thumbs Up or Down?

It's funny how debates about the rights and life of the killer always seem to forget about the rights and lives of the victims. While it's true that the death penalty doesn't deter murder it's also true that long prison terms don't deter armed robbery. Shall we end prison terms because they don't deter crime? I know, let's just take people who commit crimes to the local gymnasium, shake our finger at them and say, sternly, 'you should be ashamed of yourself.' and then turn 'em loose. We wouldn't need courts, police, prisons...think of all the money and time we'd save.

Actually, I think that it's a worse punishment to leave him in solitary confinement for the rest of his life than to take his life from him in the gentle way that the death penalty is carried out. Put murderers like Tookie in solitary forever without access to anything or anyone but turning him in to a celebrity is a terrible way to address his crimes; it ignores the victims and the crimes committed against them. The people who jumped to his defense and used their celebrity to do so should be ashamed of themselves. That's way too 'bleeding heart" even for me. F*** Tookie.

 

Then you open up that philosophical can of worms...if Frau Shickelgruber(Hitler) wanted an abortion, do you try and stop her? Taking the Christian viewpoint, don't we all have original sin. What about the spy caught in the line of duty? In America, he's a hero, in, for example, the Soviet Union, he's more dangerous than any serial killer. Do you blast an airplane out of the sky, killing hundreds of innocent people to save thousands?

My point is that it seems an argument of convenience. You have the left saying an abortion is OK, but don't kill the child molesting murderer. On the right you'll save a clump of embryonic cells but will kill that same person(I won't dwell too much on the cases where guilt is in doubt)when he kills someone.

I see the hypocrisy on both sides, and while I'm not Catholic, I do admire their consistant argument. I'm sorry when I say that most people on the left and right are too cowardly to pick the "consistant" side.

 

Well, I can't agree with your whole argument. What if stealing a car, going for a joy-ride and crashing it carried a 14 day prison sentence. What if robbing a bank got you 3 weeks? I wish we had info from say North Korea, or the Soviet Union on their murder rates. If you know that if you're caught and you'll be dead in 5days, and it happened that thousands of people "disappeared" every month...then it would be a deterrent.

 

I don't think this is an example of a true moral dilemma, or that you have presented morally equivalent situations at all. Abortion and capital punishment are very different issues, and any number of positions can be taken by non-hypocritical people (I tend to respect any reasoned approach, even those I don't agree with). I don't see hypocrisy when people feel one way about abortion, and another about capital punishment (either way).

I'm pro-life, but I can understand the argument that a fetus is not a human until it has higher brain function, or that it becomes human when it draws its first breath. I don't agree, but I understand it. And it's not hypocritical for a person to believe that, yet want to save the life of every condemned man on death row. In their view, it is "not human" verses "human" life.

For the pro-life, pro-death penalty person, it is an argument regarding the innocence of one human (the fetus) and the guilt of the other. Guilty people deserve to be punished. Again, this is not my particular belief, but I understand it, and don't believe it to be an example of hypocrisy.

Those are the two polarized views out there on the two issues. I'm in a definate minority on both sides of the question, so usually my personal beliefs make no one happy. But I do understand the arguments on both sides of the question.

 

So if I want the government meddling in my health care I should move to Europe. Is the government going to tell me where to work? Where to live? When to get up? This is forward thinking? I think forward thinking is keeping the government out of our lives and letting the individual flourish.

This is off topic though so I'll save it for another thread.

 

Well, my point may have been a little vague. The idea that the death penalty doesn't deter people like Tookie from committing murder isn't a good enough reason against the death penalty because no punishment seems to deter people from committing crimes. There are all kinds of aspects about this celebrity murderer that could be addressed but I'm not going to get long-winded and air them all. He was convicted of murder, sentenced to death, had twenty years of appeals and the sentence was finally carried out. I don't put much faith in what a criminal such as Tookie does AFTER he goes to prison for his crimes. It doesn't help anyone for him to find a nonviolent lifestyle after he's committed violent crimes, least of all his victims or their families. So he changed after he got to prison. So what?

 

The next scheduled execution in California is of a man sentenced for a murder who then, from jail, arranged the murders of 8 people. Three were killed before the acommplice was stopped.

I wonder if this particular guy will receive the same agitation for clemency as Mr. Williams. He is old and frail now, and has been appealing the sentence for nearly as long as Mr. Williams.

I'm not a death penalty advocate per se, but in the case of someone who, from behind bars, orders up multiple murders as easily as ordering pizzas, I don't see much of an alternative for society.

 

The Crips and Bloods have been competing since I was a boy (30 years ago) in LA. Now I suppose a Blood wants to be executed so they won't be outdone by a Crip.

 

Looks like you got as far from LA as it's geographically possible to do, too!

 

Tookies body was shown to the public, in the Vermont Knolls section of South Central L.A. last night. there were some Nation of Islam folks, a few Crips and other wonderful people paying their respects for Tookie. No Bloods or Koreans attended Tookie's viewing, I wonder why?
His funeral service will be held at the Bethel A.M.E church. Attendees to the furneral expected are Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, Lewis Farrakahn from the Nation of Islam and some other awesome people.

 

My point is that the progressiveness or regressiveness of a country is based on your own personal measure. If you believe letting the individual flourish is your measure, than so be it. I'm sure the lawlessness of Sudan might be to your liking, can't count on anyone there but yourself. If you believe abortion is an unholy abomination, then you're probably stuck thinking the Vatican...and the Philippines are the only good countries.

Now my wife is from Finland, and she has never been told where she can work, where she can live and when to get up. I don't really know where you got the impression that that is how things are in Europe. She chose her own career path and never had government interference. And Finland has had a flourishing economy with Nokia, Nokian, Mirena. It was individual achievment of Linus Torvaldts that created Linux, the only real competitor to Windows...and of all things, he shared it with the world for free!

And when it's time for you to get Medicare, you will be part of the largest single "business" entity in the world(US Government) meddling in your healtcare. I don't know what they do for men, but for women I can tell you if you have medicare, don't expect a Pap smear every year. Don't expect them to pay for a preventative physical. And even if that brand new drug works great for you...plan on settling for the generic even though it gives you stomach cramps...

 

Let me clarify myself. First I've bopped around Europe quite a bit in my life, so I have some firsthand experience. I have noticed that Europe has taken a left turn toward socialism in the last thirty years or so. Socialism (unions are another analogy) severley dampens the competitive spirit and reduces even the most enthusiastic and talented individuals to nothing more than average or less than average performer. Hence in Europe you have huge unemployment and all the associated problems, whereas in America we have lower taxes and virtually 100% emlpoyment. ANYONE can find gainful employment if they want. Also I don't expect the gov't (hey thats us! you AND me) and I don't expect you to pay for my preventive physicals. I personally don't think the govt should do anything except maintain a kickass military. I could go on and on but I'll spare ya'll - But yes European Socialism is backward compared to the USA.

 

But you will let them pay for your bypass when the time comes. You gotta spend a penny to save a dime. If the guy whose cholesterol was 320 didn't go for a physical for 20 years getting it lowered, then he'll just show up in the ER one day for a bypass. Twenty years of preventive physicals=$2400. Bypass, all totaled, about $25,000.

Anyhow, I'm not saying that the European system is better. What I'm saying is that a country with 5% of the worlds population and 20% of the world's wealth can't find a rational way to deliver healthcare to it's people...and there are about a dozen other measures that would put us behind many other countries.

And as far as Medicare...you've been paying into the system all your life, why wouldn't expect to use it when you retire? The government and I(hey thats us! you AND me) will appreciate the thousands of dollars you'll save us by not taking your benefits! :lol:

 

My doctor gave me 30 days to live, I couldn't pay my bill, so he gave me another 30 days! But seriously folks healthcare in the USA is the best in the world! Hands down. I'll get insurance for the calamity. Do the attorneys bear any responsibility for upping health care costs??

 

My doctor gave me 30 days to live, I couldn't pay my bill, so he gave me another 30 days! But seriously folks healthcare in the USA is the best in the world! Hands down. I'll get insurance for the calamity. Do the attorneys bear any responsibility for upping health care costs??

 

Yes, I know that we have the best healtcare in the world...when you get sick. Bottom line, there is no money in preventive care. When I met with our company accountant, he basically told me if I want to increase my salary, I should operate more. I spend too much time trying to manage my patients medically.

So in a country like Finland, where there is no financial incentive to treat sick people, you basically try to keep them healthy so they don't come to the hospital.

Do lawyers bear responsibility...sure. Do doctors, hospitals and clinics...sure. Last year our hospital decided they needed to replace every single CRT monitor with LCD, even though the CRTs were fine! The old hysteroscope I used to use worked fine, but we "Needed" the new Slim-Line, only $25,000!

 

I have to agree with Imntacrook.

We can always count on governments to do less for more $ and lower everyones expectations.

Its my understanding that in England you cannot receive a heart bypass if you are above a certain age and a small percentage of the population die while on waitlists for treatement.

Medical costs used to rise at about twice the cost of inflation. When medicare went through it started rising at four time the rate.

Business is always accused of short term thinking, thats nothing compared to government programs. If politicians were held to the same standards as business professionals, the would all go to jail for negligence and fraud.

If we had been able to invest our social security monies most of us could pay for our own medical care.

 

Most of us could afford healthcare when we're young because the vast majority of our healthcare dollars are spent in the last few years of life. But if you think that SS money will cover medical bills, you should see what is actually charged by hospitals and providers. Fifteen minutes of OR time is $800. A stapler to close a skin incision is $200. One night in the ICU will cost about $10,000.

As for the bypass, yes. In Canada, many people needing bypass surgery will drive to Detroit to get it done tomorrow instead of 6 months. My point is that there would be less illnesses to treat, if we were better at preventing them in the first place, and the US is sorely behind many "backward" nations.

 

I agree preventive medicine is a good thing, however it was used in a big way in countries with national health care because they were running out of money and are trying to reduce costs.

 

And we have more health care dollars than anyone else...imagine we spent a lot on preventive care and had the best tertiary care...truly, a winning combination...sort of like the 1.5ICE and Hybrid!