Thinking of going veggie, need some advice??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ Apr 10 2007, 02:10 PM) [snapback]420941[/snapback]</div>

I would be very mad at him and I would cease my task of working with him to achieve some sort of amicable relations. :angry: I may be skinny, but I'm agile, fast and have great endurance - all thanks to my healthy diet!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Apr 10 2007, 02:05 PM) [snapback]420940[/snapback]</div>

i also have pets at home and having to work with animals a few times a year does present me with a lot of internal conflict, so i am sensitive to how people feel about this. however, i just don't see the eating animals vs lab animals thing personally.

industrial applications are a vastly different world than what i know about and i won't pretend to know a thing about animal testing. i see that as a very different thing than animal research. animal research is more academic, about finding out how things work, while animal testing is more of a product safety test. i fail to see how animal testing can minimize the pain and stress experienced by an animal. all i know is the guidelines that my own work is subject to.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Apr 10 2007, 03:01 PM) [snapback]420980[/snapback]</div>

From what I've learned, they can't. They are abused, neglected, caged, etc. I can't reconcile this so I avoid supporting this activity when making my purchases.

 

well, all our rats are caged. they do prefer to be housed with at least one other rat, and rats per cage is determined by size of the rat. the older guys are two to a cage, the young ones have up to three other cagemates. only when studying stress are rats singly housed that i have heard of.

i guess i'm wondering what constitutes neglect to you? we leave our rats to socialize amongst themselves i suppose, meaning we interact with them mainly during the process of caretaking and during experiments. their social needs are met with the other rats in their cages. we do maintain a clean, sanitary environment with proper food, water, air temperature and humidity conditions. they have their own cage ventilators.

so with, for example a parrot... that is neglect. we can't just leave our senegal in her cage all day because she does have high-order social needs that are not met by sitting there alone all day, or even with another bird. but for a rat, it's not like they really need us when they have other rats to interact with. they are used to minimal human interaction and do just fine as such. people stress them out, usually.

there certainly is no abuse going on over here in any form of the word.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Apr 10 2007, 03:15 PM) [snapback]420996[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mayathystle @ Apr 10 2007, 01:50 PM) [snapback]420931[/snapback]</div>

Hold on, let me call the WAAAAAAAAAAAMBULANCE.

If you find me, some goober, "extremely" offensive because I said that most veggie heads I know look sickly, weak, and not are not "good company" because they demand others to go out of their way and accomodate their silly diet.. and that their frail appearance is probably due to their lack of properly supplementing their vegetarian diet, then you need to get some thicker skin.

I've been pretty clear, and certainly outspoken/possibily rude.. and I still maintain my same thoughts on MOST vegetarians.. While their intentions may be good, they come off looking like complete jerkwads. They quote some PETA garbage.. probably written by a 12 year old girl whom is a vegetarian probably because she wants to rebel against her parents. Most of the ones I know are skinny little hippies that stink of pot or body odor.. It seems as if some of them choose to be vegetarian as they are against anything that is "mainstream" .. Then you've got the vegetarians that think eating meat will somehow be healthier for them, and after a few years they can't even stomach eating soup with beef broth. A good friend of mine, a skinny little guy.. He was a vegetarian for years. His appearance was that of a vagrant that hadn't eaten a good meal in months. After so many years of not eating meat he could not even tolerate to consume BROTH. BROTH people.. come on. We could go out to eat dinner at a nice restaurant and he would turn the experience into something negative. IF they had food that he could eat, he would complain about it because it was so bland.. not sure what he was expecting when he's got a plate full of VEGETABLES!

Luckily for him he jumped off of the vegetarian bandwagon and slowly started introducing meats back into his diet. Now, we can actually go have a nice meal and not worry about his steamed veggies tasting like.. well.. steamed veggies. He has put on some good weight and has much more energy.

So don't tell me that a vegetarian diet is GOOD when you've got to TRY to supplement it with vitamins or by eating a bunch of beans and TOFU...

If your diet causes your stomach to not be able to handle digesting BROTH.. then your diet sucks, and I'm not afraid to "EXTREMELY OFFEND" you by telling you how much I think it sucks.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ Apr 10 2007, 02:10 PM) [snapback]420941[/snapback]</div>

Mmmmm.. wabbit stew!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 8 2007, 07:40 PM) [snapback]420001[/snapback]</div>

Oxymoron. "Vegan" and "well-balanced" are mutual exclusives.

And that B12 supplement? Where do you think that comes from? :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 8 2007, 07:40 PM) [snapback]420001[/snapback]</div>

Except it isn't the fat content that's the problem. While the fat profile of exclusively-pastured grass-fed beef is slightly different than feed-lot corn-fed beef, the truly "dangerous" aspects of commercial meat today is the necessity for force-feeding of antibiotics in order for the cattle to "tolerate" an unnatural diet of corn, the growth hormones used and the pesticided in the feed. Whole-milk dairy has no more fat content than it did before, but now is subjected to pasteurization or ultra-pasteurization and homogenization which alters the composition of the fat and makes it unhealthful.

Just a note here: due to the high amounts of calories a veg*n must consume in excess and otherwise useless calories from both unbalanced amino acids and the attendant high-carbohydrate load from all those grains and legumes, if they didn't also practice a seriously low-fat regimine as well, they'd all be morbidly obese. Veg*ns will universally push a low-fat agenda, but dietary fat, especially including those from good-quality animal sources as well as tropical oils like coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil and macadamia nut oil are all very healthful.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Apr 9 2007, 12:36 AM) [snapback]420115[/snapback]</div>

Yes, that was me.

Here are some resources on the dangers of soy and soy products. Remember that soybeans, like corn, are very 'versitile' plant products for food manufacturers. They can be manufactured into many different forms like high-fructose corn syrup, high-omega-6 polyunsaturated (very dangerous) vegetable oils, corn starch, tofu (including a miriad of fake-meats), fake 'milk', baby formula and both can be used for livestock feed. They are both inexpensive to grow and highly profitable for their growers, especially when they are both so heavily and absurdly subsidised by the US government. And although neither product is especially 'healthful' even in it's natural state, many of the products made from each are downright dangerous to human health.

Soy is touted as having special health benefits and those promoting its use will invariably point to Asian consumption of soy. However, the soy products that Asians use are very different (lengthy naturally fermented as in miso) than what Americans use (cooked and highly processed as in soy milk). The average use of soy products in Asia amounts to 2 teaspoons per day. Let's compare that to a typcial veg*n whose diet is based on several ounces of tofu a day washed down by a couple glasses of soy milk.

http://thyroid.about.com/cs/soyinfo/a/soy.htm

http://www.frot.co.nz/dietnet/basics/soy.htm

http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/index.htm

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/

http://www.soyinfo.com/dangers.shtml

http://www.life.ca/nl/101/soy.html

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/Soy%20Allergens.html

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/ploy.html

http://www.funpcgame.com/health/unfermented-soy-danger.htm

 

Watch out, AnOldHouse.. you might offend some veggie head because you're providing them with hard facts that negate the propaganda they read from PETA. Me, I just gave my opinion.. and my real-life experiences with vegetarianism.. of course with some bias, though.

Regardless, we're on the same page. I have not only previously read most of what is talked about in your links, I've seen in person that MOST vegetarians are not healthy. As mentioned before, there aren't near as many veggie heads as their are "omnivores" - yet MOST of the veggie heads look like cancer patients.. It's like some sort of total denial or something.. Denial that MOST of them are probably not getting what their body needs.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Apr 10 2007, 08:34 PM) [snapback]421231[/snapback]</div>

Well, apparently, I already have 'offended' a few people on this thread, and that's just fine with me. I've also had my words thoroughly twisted. Frankly, even with presenting information with scientific backing, I fully expected to encounter a few who will take offense or twist my words. It's happened before and it will happen again.

It's interesting to see that there are some who are still interested in the scientific information and have an open mind like SSimon and those who 'hit-and-run' like daniel and EricGo, isn't it? Or the ones who claim the discussion is somehow 'moot' simply because they have a closed mind and are unwilling to or, more likely, utterly incapable of logically defending their dietary lifestyle choice.

And I've been totally laughing my nice person off over your 'extremely offensive' posts and the reactions to them. Yeah, let's just lock down or delete this inconvenient thread because some people just can't handle the truth!!! :lol: :lol:

Vegetarians can be healthy, but they had better know exactly what they're doing to get in all their essential nutrients daily and also understand that their choice is a clear compromise and definitely not the optimal healthy natural human diet. Vegans, as far as I'm concerned, are simply in deep denial and have fallen victim to the the PETA and PCRM propaganda. If you aren't familiar with PCRM, that's the 'Physicians' Committee for 'Responsible' Medicine. They're the attack dogs against the Atkins Diet. They are nothing more than a flimsy front for PETA and happen to share the very same offices, staff and many board members as PETA. They have a few token 'physicians' on their board like Dean Ornish, but aren't the least bit responsible. Perhaps EricGo is on the board too? :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Apr 10 2007, 09:17 PM) [snapback]421213[/snapback]</div>

I've tried to be careful in selecting my links for real usefulness, not bias. I've seen little in the way of anti-veg*n propaganda, but a boat-load of veg*an/PETA propaganda simply dismissing the many cautions on unfermented soy products completely out of hand, simply because the information is 'inconvenient.'

Here's a link from what I consider a very credible, unbiased information source (Sally Fallon) that mentions tempeh and recommends it be used as a complete substitute for tofu for those using a veg*n lifestyle because it is fermented.

http://www.fbfc.com/scoop/feb01/lacto.html

"Miso and tempeh are wonderful fermented products. Tofu, unfortunately, is not fermented. Soybeans have an unusually high phytate content, and are best eaten fermented. Tempeh should replace tofu as a staple food of vegetarians and vegans."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Michgal007 @ Apr 8 2007, 04:31 PM) [snapback]419938[/snapback]</div>

Unless all your friends are felines or birds of prey, they are not 'carnivores'. And if they are, they wouldn't be eating vegetarian foods you prepare. Humans are omnivores. The sheer pervasiveness of the incorrect usage of the term 'carnivores' by vegetarians/vegans, is clear evidence that they have blindly accepted the PETA propaganda as gospel.

Here's a link to such veg*n propaganda that daniel was quoting line and verse from, with the obviously assinine categorization of humans as 'frugivores' comparing them to 'carnivores' which humans are neither:

http://www.vegetarismus.ch/info/e12.htm

Note the entirely unbiased entry regarding carnivore's intestines: "Short and smooth to aide in quick evacuation of rotting meat."

My vegetarian niece tried playing the out-dated, lame, alarmist and otherwise outright false "meat-eaters have 5 pounds of rotting meat piled up in their intestines" PETA propaganda on me. Somehow she mananged to get that up from the standard 3 pound propaganda that it used to be. :lol: I pointed out that if that's true, that she's got just as much rotting compost piled up in her intestines. :lol: :lol: :lol: Little did she know that I've done my homework on the subject and gave her a fast lesson on optimal human nutrition, which probably did no good.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AnOldHouse @ Apr 10 2007, 10:18 PM) [snapback]421251[/snapback]</div>

I also prefer the taste of tempeh to tofu, which to me is like eating a sponge.

 

I want to know one thing:

Who is going to stand up for the poor vegetables. These poor helpless creatures need protection. If you don't like what happens to chickens, then what about oranges. the poor naval orange tree is nutured when young and forced to produce a seed that is devoid of the ability to reproduce. Now that should also concern you. Does it?

"FOOD" for thought. LOL

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AnOldHouse @ Apr 10 2007, 09:18 PM) [snapback]421251[/snapback]</div>

I had a chance to review this link and it's useful. It mentions utilizing sprouted grains in the diet to neutralize the acid that's present and I have already been purchasing these whenever available. They actually sell sprouted greens at the store that I go to. I've read elsewhere about the nutritional availability of this "age" of seed. But to get the full picture concerning fermentation, I'll have to look into the acid itself to fully understand why and how it's useful to neutralize it before consumption. As a for instance, fermentation also neutralizes enzyme inhibitors. I'm wondering if it also tampers with all of the anti oxidants that are present and the vitamins and minerals that are present as well. I'm suspecting that in the end, I'll have to approach this with moderation in mind.

I do still question the validity of all of this based on my health. I've been a vegetarian for decades and my stamina, comprehensive blood work up, resting heart rate, blood pressure..... all are within a very healthy range. The only thing out of whack has been my cholesterol and this came down to 205. My "good" cholesterol is very high proportionally, so no meds for me. After 20+ years of having all of these minerals supposedly leached from my body, it seems that the consequences would've already been established.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bestmapman @ Apr 10 2007, 10:08 PM) [snapback]421275[/snapback]</div>

Not to mention the pain and stress of having your seeds and fruit ripped from your body. Or having your head (of spinach, lettuce, et al) cut off your body.

Look it up. Plants scream when their picked/cut.

I'd suggest a going on pure water only but then there's all those tiny bacteria and other floaty things in their about to swim down your gullet.

Going vegetarian is one thing. Doing it because of PETA propaganda is a totally other thing.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Apr 10 2007, 01:24 PM) [snapback]420887[/snapback]</div>

Psst. YOU'RE the meal... He ordered the book from Amazon.com, "How to Serve Vegetarians"

IT'S A COOKBOOK! IT'S A COOKBOOK!
:lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(alaskaprius @ Apr 8 2007, 08:52 PM) [snapback]420070[/snapback]</div>

It's true that many people are happy not to eat meat.

But for other people, the enjoyment of eating meat improves their quality of life. Some people seem to think that because they can be vegetarians and not miss meat, everyone can. That's presumptuous, assuming that the vegetarian's own experience applies to others.

So it comes down to a question of weighing the quality of life of people who like to eat meat against the quality of life of the animals that are raised to feed them.

Then of course there's the fact that nearly all meat that is eaten by humans is of animals that are raised solely to be meat. Those animals would never have been born if people didn't eat meat. The fewer people there are who eat meat, the fewer of those animals ever live at all. Are those animals truly better off never to have lived at all because they go through some fear and pain at a slaughterhouse at the ends of their lives? How much happiness or unhappiness in a cow's life is necessary to make its life worth living? How can we even begin to make such a judgment?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(alaskaprius @ Apr 8 2007, 08:52 PM) [snapback]420070[/snapback]</div>

Well, the part about the existence of the planet doesn't make much sense at all since nobody is suggesting the planet not exist.

But in terms of the rights of humans outweighing the rights of animals, in my ethical system that would be a resounding YES! I would happily have hundreds or thousands of animals die to save one human life. And I would just as happily have hundreds or thousands of animals have decreased quality of life to improve the quality of life of one human.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(alaskaprius @ Apr 8 2007, 08:52 PM) [snapback]420070[/snapback]</div>

Another component of ethics is respect for differing sets of values and ethical judgments. I respect those who choose to be vegetarians. If a given person decides that to give up something in their own life to help animals, I respect that person for doing what they think best. I have rather less respect for those who would look down on others for not making the same sacrifices for animals.