Thinking of going veggie, need some advice??

I was for many years a very strict ovo-lacto-vegetarian, rejecting any food or clothing that involved the killing of animals. A few years ago I began eating fish, but I don't eat other animals.

Item: A diet of vegetables plus dairy has all the nutrients you need plus abundant protein.

Item: A strictly vegan diet, if well-balanced, has plenty of protein and only lacks one vitamin: B12, which can be supplied in various ways.

Item: The high-fat meat and dairy products that dominate the American diet are extremely damaging to health, and are nothing like the lean natural meats that humans ate until after WW II, when the feedlot system was invented and farmers began fattening animals on corn.

Item: While PETA takes an extreme position, the scandalous cruelty that pervades the American factory farm is well-known. And while animal testing for medicine can be justified, most animal testing is done for cosmetics, and is done for human vanity, or for the marketing objective of introducing a new soap or cosmetic that is no better than the old ones, but allows the advertisers to put "new" on the label.

Item: The production of animal products for food is massively wasteful of land, water, and energy. Between ten and a hundred times as many people can be fed on the same parcel of land used to produce vegetable crops, as compared to animal products.

There are plenty of reasons to adopt vegetarianism to one degree or another, whether for ethical reasons you eliminate animal products entirely, or whether for environmental or health reasons you reduce your consumption of meat to a typical European or African level.

I quit eating meat in 1967. I had decided I didn't want to be involved in the cruelty of murdering animals, but I thought I could not live without meat, which at that time constituted the greatest part of my diet. Just at that time there was a city-wide meat-cutter's strike, and as a union supporter I ate no meat for the 2-week duration of the strike. I discovered that I could indeed live without meat, and I never went back. It took me a long time to learn how to eat a balnced diet, and how to cook veggies, but now, at 58 years old, my health is considerably better than it was at 19. In those days climbing 2 flights of stairs left me huffing and puffing. Now I go hiking in the mountains can can walk 10 to 15 miles in a day with an elevation gain of slightly upwards of 4,000 feet. And in just over a year I'll be 60 years old. Lots of marathon runners are vegetarians, and that should put to rest any concerns about the health of a vegetarian diet.

Get a good vegetarian cookbook, and you'll discover that the pure hedonsitic pleasure of eating veggies is as great as the pleasure of eating meat.

One word of advice: Avoid products intended to taste like meat (bocaburger, etc.) because they will leave you always feeling that you're eating a substitute and a second-best. Proper beans and veggies have their own marvellous flavors, and once you develop a taste for them, you will not miss meat any more. It took me about a year before I no longer craved meat, about another year until I no longer liked the smell of it, and after about 3 years, the very thought of using my stomach for a graveyard made me sick.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(alaskaprius @ Apr 8 2007, 07:21 PM) [snapback]419995[/snapback]</div>

I refer you my prior statement regarding the distinctly inverse proportion of per-capita meat eating as compared to obesity rates in the US since 1960.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AnOldHouse @ Apr 8 2007, 05:35 PM) [snapback]419998[/snapback]</div>

No carnivore has molars. Molars are for grinding plant foods. Incisors are for biting fruit. Carnivores have large canine teeth. Look at a cat or a dog. Frugivores have small canines like ours.

Only ruminants have multiple stomachs. Carnivores, however, have much shorter intestinal tracts than humans have, measured as a multiple of the mouth-to-anus distance. Humans have the intestinal tract of a frugivore.

Anatomically we are vegetarians, though we have evolved the ability to eat pretty much anything. In this respect we resemble rats more than anything else.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 8 2007, 07:40 PM) [snapback]420001[/snapback]</div>

Proper? :lol: :lol:

Oh, thanks Daniel for reminding me of this very important point: neither beans nor grains are part of the natural hunter/gatherer ominivorous human diet as both absolutely require cooking or fermenting (activities of agricultural cultures for at most merely the past 10,000 years) to neutralize toxins prior to human ingestion. More clear evidence that humans are entirely naturally omnivorous.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 8 2007, 07:46 PM) [snapback]420005[/snapback]</div>

I didn't say that humans were carnivores. Felines are obligate carnivores. Humans and canines are omnivores. Do you understand the difference?

If humans were frugivores, then we would be able to thrive on fruit alone. If we were vegetarians, we would be able to thrive on uncooked plant matter alone. Fact: we can't do either.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AnOldHouse @ Apr 8 2007, 05:53 PM) [snapback]419949[/snapback]</div>

People who say 'naturally' omnivorous inevitably follow with propaganda and misinformation -- like this post.

I am a vegetarian by most definitions, since I eat eggs in bread, and cheese as a flavoring perhaps once a week. I have no nutritional deficiencies, have not lost protein mass through the years, and my only concession to a regulated diet is to limit candy.

Your attempt to justify your stance with 'science' is uninformed. First off, plant protein is NOT "lacking" an essential amino acid. Rather, it is unbalanced compared to average human polypeptide composition, meaning that more total protein is required than an egg equivalent. Since a balanced veg diet has more than enough protein, so long as candy does not provide a large proportion of the caloric requirements, this is a non-argument.

BTW, combining foodstuffs to gain a more efficient protein mix is easy if unecessary. The body will hold on to unused amino acids upwards of 12 hours before shunting to another metabolic pathway. If three meals does not give a person enough variety to balance plant AA, there is a problem, but it is not vegetarianism.

To recap: a varied diet, and avoidance of candy equivalents as a major coloric input is ALL that is required to make adequate protein intake a non-issue.

What about vitamins ? Cold cereal once or twice a week, one egg a week, or a couple glasses of milk a week is enough. If none of those happen, eat a multi-vitamin twice a week.

I have my opinions regarding animal cruelty, but I fail to understand OP's request to 'be convinced'. The information of husbandry practices is easily obtainable. Go get it.

Sorry about the tone. I've been reading white house disinformation and science suppresion, and it has me in a foul mood.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 8 2007, 07:40 PM) [snapback]420001[/snapback]</div>

My favorites are:

Vegetarian Cookbook by Sunset Magazine.

International Vegetarian Cookbook by Sunset Magazine.

Vegetarian Epicure (book 1 and book 2) by Anna Thomas

BTW you can add shrimp or cooked chicken or hard boiled eggs to many of these recipes if you're slowly weaning yourself off or you have family or guests that need/demand some meat.

I especially like the Sunset books. They include soups, salads, entrees and deserts. And they have sample menus that contain a balance of everything you need. Several of my favorite recipes are from Sunset including Spinach Feta quiche in a whole wheat crust. Yum. I bought the Anna Thomas books because of their varied recipes and directions. I learned to make Chapatis and Puris from her books. She also includes menus.

I'm still on the lookout for a really good recipe for cold sorrel soup. Probably cream of sorrel. I've tried creating my own but still haven't got it right. Had it in a restaurant and it was delicous but I haven't been able to duplicate it. If anyone has one, please share.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AnOldHouse @ Apr 8 2007, 07:35 PM) [snapback]419998[/snapback]</div>

There is a big difference between the 'ability' to eat meat and the 'necessity' to eat meat. My point is that humans do not NEED to eat meat to live happy, healthy lives (as proven by millions of people who never eat a piece of meat in their life).

And unlike all other mammals out there, humans are 'moral' beings (at least some of them), which means we should take other beings and the planet into account when making day to day decisions. Apparently meat-eaters think that their 'right' to a certain food-taste far outweighs the 'rights' of animals or the planet to exist.

Just because we have the ability to breed, slaughter and eat animals doesn't mean that we should. And from an ethical and environmental standpoint it's simply not justifiable to eat meat, especially since we don't NEED to eat meat to live.

 

I've been a vegetarian for approx. 20 years and have suffered no consequences or ill effects from the diet (at least I don't think I have :blink . I've known several vegetarians who were only able to maintain the diet for several years. One started craving meat again when they became pregnant. Maybe it'll be an easier transition for you if you start decreasing your consumption gradually. For me it was cold turkey. I was preparing a flank steak one day and gagged. Done.

It's important that you understand the nutritional requirements of vegetarians before taking the plunge. You'll have to pay special attention to protein and vitamin B12 (as have been mentioned).

For a single plant food with a wonderfully balanced amino acid composition, try Quinoa. It's a seed that packs a high percentage of protein. It also has other useful minerals. It can be prepared in soups, stews, veggie wraps, etc. It should be rinsed well and then cooked. Otherwise, just make sure you eat lots of beans and brown rice in the same day and you'll ensure that your protein intake is satisfactory. Black beans are a good choice as they contain a higher percentage of antioxidants than most others.

I'm a little weary of soy products now due to the lack of fermentation in the processing of this plant. I did some research after An Old House (I think) mentioned this in another thread and there is potential that soy can be toxic to a degree and promote malnutrition as it lends to a decreased absorption of required vitamins and minerals. I believe that tempeh is ok since it's cultured. Maybe An Old House can comment on this.

Vitamin B12 can be supplemented in various forms so you should do your research to ensure you're implementing the method with which you're the most comfortable.

Other than that, you're ready to go. Just try to make sure that you don't fill your meat void with a bunch of junk food and that you eat a wide variety of fruits, vegetables, grains, beans, "good" fats. The more colors, the better.

There's plenty of information out there about how a vegetarian diet can be a lot healthier than a meat laden diet, if implemented and maintained correctly. It's also a diet that infringes on our planet and on animals to a significantly less degree. I hope that you find it's a choice than can compliment your lifestyle. Good luck.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Apr 9 2007, 12:36 AM) [snapback]420115[/snapback]</div>

As Daniel's post above explained, vegetarians who eat milk-products don't need to think about vitamin B12 at all, since it's plentiful in milk-products. Only vegans need to worry about suplemental B12, which BTW is almost always extracted from animal products - catch 22 for vegans. I think the only types of plants that produce B12 are sea-algae. And you gotta eat a TON of them to cover your required B12. The whole issue around whether we even 'need' vitamin B12 is somewhat controversial, since humans can produce it themselves in their intestinal tract. However, to be on the safe side I'd recommend taking suplements to vegans. But again: as a regular lacto-ovo veggie you don't even have to think about it at all.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Oxo @ Apr 8 2007, 04:39 PM) [snapback]419942[/snapback]</div>

In your view, perhaps. I have heard from a lot of doctors, including the one treating me for cancer, that meat is important. Just saying. That's all.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Apr 8 2007, 05:19 PM) [snapback]419959[/snapback]</div>

I don't know; nothing worse then the triple whooper from Burger King. It's all about what the consumer wants, you know? If there is no market for it, it won't sell.

 

Interesting discussion. I believe humans are omnivores, but this doesn't mean we need to eat meat (like someone pointed out). AnOldHouse said humans are not vegetarians because we have to cook the vegetables. I never thought about this point. However, we CAN eat raw fuits and vegetables. Just look at a veggie snack platter. For some vegetables we probably cannot do this.

Now, can we eat raw meat? I think not.

So, AnOldHouse's logic means we cannot eat vegetables, meat or grains? What can we eat then? Just fruits? Something doesn't add up.

Most people become vegetarians for ethical or religious reasons. Leave them alone. Humans CAN survive with a vegetarian diet. There are millions of people doing that.

This is no less insane than a Hummer vs. Prius argument.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Apr 8 2007, 10:08 PM) [snapback]420053[/snapback]</div>

Wow. Talk about a boat load of propaganda!

What exactly is the difference between plant foods 'lacking' certain amino acids and being 'unbalanced.' Talk about veg*n spin! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Vitamins? Cold cereal, even the kind that is loaded with artificial vitamin substances from petroleum products once a week OR one egg OR a couple of glassess of milk come no where near the RDA for most vitamins and minerals for a DAY let alone a WEEK.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(alaskaprius @ Apr 8 2007, 10:52 PM) [snapback]420070[/snapback]</div>

Kindly point out exactly where *I* said you NEED to eat meat. It's been stated here, but not by me.

 

Perhaps you've all scared off the original poster with all this "he said, she said". Everyone is going to have their own viewpoint on the pros and cons of vegetarianism, as everyone is not alike in their beliefs, be they rational or not. So, I'm not going to play the game of what is ethical or environmentally sound or nutritionally necessary. We all know that millions of people around the world are vegetarian (and, no, you are NOT vegetarian if you eat fish or chicken "once in a while"). That being said, you can live a healthy and satisfied life being vegetarian.

If you want some good books on the topic, I suggest you pick up "The New Becoming Vegetarian" by Vesanto Melina. It's a great introduction to vegetarianism and covers all aspects of information that you need to know and it doesn't try to push an agenda about the environment or animal activism. There are also many good cookbooks out there. I enjoy reading Vegetarian Times magazine for recipes, as well. I have well over 30 veg cookbooks, I particularly use Simple Vegetarian Pleasures, the Vegetarian Times Complete Cookbook, and Vegan Planet.

There are many ways to go vegetarian, some people stop without weaning themselves away from meat, others use meat analogs to replace their favorite meat products. Again, I don't want to get into the whole "he said, she said" on meat analogs, it's just an option for some people who enjoy meat-like products.

I hope you find some answers to your question about becoming vegetarian through the many resources that are available. If you want any advice, feel free to pm me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Michgal007 @ Apr 9 2007, 08:29 AM) [snapback]420204[/snapback]</div>

Uh, no I didn't. I quite clearly said that both grains and legumes must be cooked or fermented. Yes, you can eat raw fruit and vegetables, but you're not going to fulfill your protein requirements by eating only that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Michgal007 @ Apr 9 2007, 08:29 AM) [snapback]420204[/snapback]</div>

Why not? Never heard of carpaccio? Rare-cooked beef that's red and cool on the inside? Humans are perfectly well designed to properly digest raw meats. There are human cultures that get their protein requirements from eating insects. Just because you may find it 'repulsive' doesn't mean it isn't natural and healthy. It simply isn't a good idea to eat raw meat today because of the improper handling and processing that can taint meat.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Michgal007 @ Apr 9 2007, 08:29 AM) [snapback]420204[/snapback]</div>

The only something that doesn't add up is your twisting of my logic. Please point out where I said you can't eat raw vegetables. I certainly never said we can't eat raw meats, YOU did. My logic is entirely clear: humans are naturally omnivorous, and I've clearly supported that fact with incontrovertable evidence. It is my contention that since it is the natural human diet, that it is logically therefore the diet for optimum human health.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Michgal007 @ Apr 9 2007, 08:29 AM) [snapback]420204[/snapback]</div>

An if they choose to do so, that is entirely a cultural choice. Again, that doesn't mean that it is the natural and optimum human diet.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Apr 8 2007, 08:08 PM) [snapback]420053[/snapback]</div>

That's it in a nutshell: Eat a diet of as many different kinds of fruits and vegetables as you can, and do NOT replace meat with candy (or other junk food), and you'll have a healthy diet.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(alaskaprius @ Apr 8 2007, 08:52 PM) [snapback]420070[/snapback]</div>

Another excellent point! We can eat meat, but doing so is selfish, and degrades the environment we and future generations must inhabit. It is also inconsiderate of our fellow creatures, who are murdered so we can indulge our taste buds with something that, objectively, is no "better" than plant-based foods.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Apr 8 2007, 10:36 PM) [snapback]420115[/snapback]</div>

Quinoa is delicious! And it adds variety to your diet. An added benefit is that it cooks quickly. I highly recommend it. But you still need to eat legumes with it if you want the highest-quality protein. As a grain, it has less than the optimum amount of lysine.

 

Just FYI.. most of the articles and exploits PETA performs are by highly confused and emotional teenage girls.

My opinion isn't a popular around a bunch of liberals like you... but vegetarians are the most sickly looking pale people I've ever seen.

Not too many athletes are vegetarian.. not the good ones, at least.

 

Do they not find charcoal in archaelogical site containing early hominids that they arrtibute to fire techonology over 1 million years ago? We do know for certain that early humans and neanderthalensis used fire so lets say at least 100,000 years of evolution during which we had fire technology which allowed us to cook grains which adapted us to eating more grains and could explain why humans from 40k yra were more robust and showed significant tooth size differences compared to man today. It definately goes back much further than 10,000yra.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Michgal007 @ Apr 9 2007, 09:29 AM) [snapback]420204[/snapback]</div>

Thank you, Michgal for pointing out how silly this thread is. It's a bit like arguing whether yukon gold potatoes are beter than redskin potatoes. It really all comes down to the tastes that a person prefers. If meat makes you sick to even look at it, then don't eat it. If the thought of a day without meat scares you, then eat it.

That said, I seriously doubt anyone is going to change anyone's opinion based on this thread. Especially considering that when most people's ideas are challenged they tend to dig in their heels and refuse to acknowledge the opposite point of view.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 9 2007, 10:26 AM) [snapback]420262[/snapback]</div>

Damn right my decision to eat meat is selfish. Entirely selfish to the point of wanting the most nutrient-dense, whole-food, healthful, natural, optimum diet I can possibly obtain.

I can't see where supporting a local farm that raises grass-fed beef and other organic meats is the least bit harmful to the environment. If it is, all roaming heards of elk, deer and bison should be considered as equally harmful environmentally.

Meat is most definitely "better" than plant-based sources of protein as it is nutrient-dense (far more than either grains or legumes) and is a complete, properly balanced source of protein. Lower grade sources of proteins like grains and legumes require eating excessive calories in order to acheive the same balance.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 9 2007, 10:26 AM) [snapback]420262[/snapback]</div>

In other words, you've made it entirely clear that even quinoa is still a significantly inferior source of balanced protein for the human diet.