Thinking of going veggie, need some advice??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ACD @ Apr 13 2007, 12:34 PM) [snapback]422894[/snapback]</div>

Very true. That is why we HAVE to stop subsidising polluting behavior and rewarding healthy ones. Famers like Joel from Polyface Farms make a living but their operations would be much more viable if the CAFOs and monoculture corn crops were not so heavily subsidized. I live in an area that was mainly farm and grassland/oak savannah and it is continually being paved over to make room for houses and more Starbuck/Jamba Juice/Best Buy centers. We fight aganist such things but as you well know that does little good when democracy is an illusion. In this regard I side with the farmers in my area who I know are polluting but they are the lesser of the two evils (housing sprawl vs agriculture).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ACD @ Apr 13 2007, 12:28 PM) [snapback]422888[/snapback]</div>

I know with methanol the main worrisome byproduct is formaldahyde. Is there anything like that with biodiesel? I spend most of my day in our science building on campus and can ask around but I figure you might already know. If there are no electric cars out by the time I'm ready for a new car I may restore and older diesel and make it bio. By then I'll have taken all 3 chemistry classes and hopefully finished organic chem. lol

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Darwood @ Apr 13 2007, 11:16 AM) [snapback]422828[/snapback]</div>

You've missed the point. How an animal dies is only one small part of the equation. Yes, I agree, the killing of livestock is largely done as humanely as possible and wild animals sometimes die more painfully and slowly as a result of predation/starvation.

But it is the quality of life the animal leads before death that is my major concern. The bad diets, the restricted movements, the overcrowding, the mutilations that occur - that's what is not morally ok.

Yes wild animals can have an unavoidable rough go of it at times too, no question, but we aren't the direct cause of that kind of suffering (except when we destroy habitats) and for the majority of their lives they are experiencing a better quality of life.

My conclusion is that when we can prevent unnecessary suffering of animals we should. Cramped feedlots and factory farms aren't necessary so we shouldn't support that kind of food production with our buying habits.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Apr 13 2007, 11:55 AM) [snapback]422863[/snapback]</div>

So because of space restrictions, if we have to choose between not eating cows or stuffing them in feedlots, you'd choose the feedlots?

I'd say let's stop eating cows. Saves water, energy, grains, and prevents suffering. Slam dunk.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fibb222 @ Apr 13 2007, 03:01 PM) [snapback]422914[/snapback]</div>

Prevents suffering for who? The cows?

Sounds like that would create suffering for PEOPLE.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Apr 13 2007, 02:05 PM) [snapback]422871[/snapback]</div>

Yes, I'm aware of all the benefits of grazing. I was looking into the topic pretty heavily as a result of another thread. It's not my view that it isn't something that we should rely upon to get us away from factory farming. Quite the contrary, I'm not appreciative in any form of factory farming for a vast amount of reasons. I was just trying to get the point across that our meat based dietary lifestyle is not sustainable while depending on a grazing if corrections aren't made to demand. I don't foresee the latter happening due to population increases and because I've also read that more and more people are converting to a meat based diet.

I hope you're not confusing my motive. I'm not stating that everyone should adopt a vegetarian diet. While I would be thankful if everyone did adopt this form of diet (because I understand how resource dependent a meat laden diet is compared to a vegetarian diet and I don't like the methods for harvesting these animals), I understand the limitation with this. I'm appreciative of this thread, not only because it's brought to light some adjustments that I need to make with my own consumption, but because I have hope that it can assist others with a more comprehensive view about their own diet and the direct consequences it may have on our planet.

Out of curiosity, what's the correlation between grazers and the promotion of a healthy environment for vernal pools? I never heard this before, unless I took that part of your post out of context.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Apr 13 2007, 02:52 PM) [snapback]422908[/snapback]</div>

There are electrical conversion kits that they sell over the internet if you're interested in converting and old car to electrical. I'm not sure of range and all that but it may be worth looking into. I'm betting your handy with cars and that you can do this yourself.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fibb222 @ Apr 13 2007, 01:01 PM) [snapback]422914[/snapback]</div>

That is pretty much how I feel. The arguement about animals in the wild is invalid IMO and is too often cited in most animal rights or ethics debated. Since animals do not directly speak to us (and most would consider this the only valid mode of communication) we will never know the true extent of their suffering or lack of, therefore, we can continue citing philosophic statements by the Peter Singers or Rene Descartes of the world but it isn't going to accomplish much on PriusChat.com. :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fibb222 @ Apr 13 2007, 03:01 PM) [snapback]422914[/snapback]</div>

Interesting, I have two people interpreting my statement in two very different ways. I'll have to do a better job of summarizing my point.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Apr 13 2007, 01:12 PM) [snapback]422922[/snapback]</div>

No my friend. I know you are up on the sciences and this sort of information. I was stating this for the other members or those who may just be viewing the page in an effort to ensure they don't confuse your motive.

I don't want to clutter this page with vernal pool information but here is a .pdf from a UC Davis study on the subject. There is a field presentation from my college tomorrow at this very ranch.

http://ucce.ucdavis.edu/files/filelibrary/2030/33367.pdf

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Apr 13 2007, 03:18 PM) [snapback]422926[/snapback]</div>

Huh. I recently went to a prairie restoration type seminar. They talked of a sow and mow practice, whereby you sow native seeds throughout the unit and then mow 1/3 of the unit during and entire season. This is performed on a rotational basis, meaning the next year you'll mow a different 1/3 of the unit during the entire growing season. It allows the native seeds enough time to set their roots while at the same time diminishing introduced species.

If this is the mechanism at work, it's nice to see it has applications for different environments.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Apr 13 2007, 01:51 PM) [snapback]422860[/snapback]</div>

I use Nutiva brand which is available at Whole Foods, but here's a link to it from amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/Nutiva-Coconut-Organ...n/dp/B0009JRKDC

Great stuff. Light coconut flavor. Excellent to use on skin.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Apr 13 2007, 01:08 PM) [snapback]422921[/snapback]</div>

Not being able to eat lots of cheap meat is not suffering - is that what you meant? Cause the less you consume the better off you will be.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Apr 13 2007, 01:55 PM) [snapback]422863[/snapback]</div>

How much acreage does one grazing cow require? Not sure where you're getting your info from, but I've got to say that such statements as the land requirement would be 1/4 of our land sound mighty grossly exaggerated.

I'm also curious about what meat yield the average cow provides, how many cows I've eaten over a given time, how much time is required to raise them, how much pasture is required for them (grass-fed only) and, therefore, what is my personal cow and acreage requirement/impact? (I wouldn't be looking for a vegetarian resource for this kind of information.)

I do think that the "water requirements" arguement to be rather superfluous as cows raised in rural areas would rely primarily on ponds, brooks and streams, but also with some the power required for well pumping (windmills?).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Apr 13 2007, 03:08 PM) [snapback]422921[/snapback]</div>

I'm still trying to get past the arguements that not eating cows (grass-fed) somehow saves water, energy and grain.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AnOldHouse @ Apr 13 2007, 05:15 PM) [snapback]422979[/snapback]</div>

It would seem that way, I know. But a cow requires 10-11 acres to graze.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Apr 13 2007, 02:30 PM) [snapback]422889[/snapback]</div>

Check out eatwild.com to see if you can go more local by buying directly from a farm in you area.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AnOldHouse @ Apr 13 2007, 05:15 PM) [snapback]422979[/snapback]</div>

no, no no......you're missing the most important part of the equation. The water requirement is significantly more for conventionally raised beef due to irrigation requirements of their corn. If a grazing cow was dependent on drought tolerant pasture, irrigation wouldn't be required unless a drastic drought ensued. Add to that all of the fuel that's required to harvest and maintain the corn and ship the corn to the feedlot. It's quite a drastic comparison between the two means of rearing animal. Unless I didn't understand your statement correctly????

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AnOldHouse @ Apr 13 2007, 05:15 PM) [snapback]422979[/snapback]</div>

Did a lazy search and this is all I could find. Doesn't appear biased.

"On a per capita basis, world meat consumption grew 21 percent between 1975 and 1988 (figure 1). At 246 pounds per capita (carcass weight), people in the United States and Hungary are the largest consumers of meat, followed by those in Australia (234 pounds), and Canada and Belgium-Luxembourg (201 pounds). Regionally, people in the EC consume 170 pounds of meat per capita, while those in Eastern Europe eat 165 pounds. People in the Soviet Union average 139 pounds of meat annually."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_..._v12/ai_7689213

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AnOldHouse @ Apr 13 2007, 03:15 PM) [snapback]422979[/snapback]</div>

Not eating cows (raised in feedlots) DOES save water, energy and grain. I understood him to be saying that feedlots were necessary because grass-fed pasture-raised cows weren't practical - not enough space. I said if feedlots were necessary I'd rather we not eat cows. If all cows were grass-fed and pasture-raised I'd be much happier.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SSimon @ Apr 13 2007, 01:35 PM) [snapback]422936[/snapback]</div>

I think the difference is mostly due to one being a restoration project and the study Davis did is more of a management tool. Once the native grasses have a good hold on the landscape you can start to use grazing. Obviously there are some drawbacks in that the cattle may bring invasive species in with their hair, hooves, dung, etc. but mowing down large areas of grassland is equally problematic and doesn't solve the fertilization issues and doesn't contribute to the local food system. Not saying what you learned was wrong by any means, just throwing out an idea of why what I learned was different from what you learned.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AnOldHouse @ Apr 13 2007, 01:42 PM) [snapback]422939[/snapback]</div>

Thanks!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AnOldHouse @ Apr 13 2007, 03:15 PM) [snapback]422979[/snapback]</div>

I have some of that information. More regarding water requirements and grain to meat ratios. When I get time I'll find it for you. It's pretty rediculous though.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Apr 13 2007, 07:34 PM) [snapback]423046[/snapback]</div>

Sow and mow is temporary, allowing native seeds to get enough light to develop and set roots the first year or two. Once matured, the mowing isn't necessary. Sorry, I forgot to add that part.

 

Save a tree, eat a vegan?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Apr 14 2007, 01:59 PM) [snapback]423301[/snapback]</div>

Yes, I'm very tasty. And I do like trees.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(desynch @ Apr 14 2007, 11:59 AM) [snapback]423301[/snapback]</div>

I'm going to leave this one alone... B)


SSimon, ok sow and mow makes sense in that context. I was at a vernal pool seminar last night that my professor put on and I was introduced to a couple and I mentioned something about grazing and vernal pools and their ears perked up so I told them about the UC Davis study and they got all interested. It turned out they already knew about such thing because the man specialized in conservation agriculture and his wife worked with the Dept. of Fish and Game as a botanist. LOL I guess their initial suprise wasn't due to the article but more so because I wasn't a treehuggin' hippy who thought all agriculture and cattle raising was bad.