The Toyota Mirai (FCV) Thread

Angry man confronts street trumpet player in NYC. Is he a plug-in owner/anti-FCV or not?

 

New York! Gotta Love New York! I think he is upset that the Mirai is not available in New York yet and he needs to wait!

 

Don't think for a minute that you're alone, fellow curmudgeon.

 

He's probably bitchin' that there's no place to fill up his FCV and he has to move it so he doesn't get a parking ticket.

 

state fund ... are those donations? buried treasure? lucky find? Call it what it is. Where do you think dollars come from, when the state gets money.
Oh .... and "roll out plan"? - that sounds so certain. But in fact, (not "if" but) WHEN fracked natural gas prices tighten up - driving prices 300% back up to pre-2010 prices .... & .... less than 1/2 of "state funds" have been fleeced from the public, ... well, then what?
I never thought I'd say it, but I'm looking forward to natural gas prices spiking back up, to stop the taxpayer waste.
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China......

 

+1

Yes, lots of the DOE funds are borrowed from china. Many of the california hydrogen stations and CSP are funded partially this way, but its a really tiny part of the budget.

California To Have Up To 70 Hydrogen Fueling Stations By 2016?
They found the money by keeping a registration fee that was set to expire, you know those temporary taxes that seem to be permanent. Its a small fee because their are a lot of vehicles.
Motorists to foot bill for California’s touted ‘hydrogen highway’.

The $67 Million for 68 stations became $220M for 100 stations. Of course these are now behind schedule, as they always are. The revised plan for adequate infrastructure is $140 M for 86 stations at the end of 2021. The latest slip was because they realized the stations would simply close down once built if the state did not give them more money for operations and maintenance. It is doubtful that private industry will invest without large subsidies unless prices drop for hydrogen pumps (tech advances which DOE is providing research funding) or they can charge enough to stay in business (probably around $15/kg if the renewable requirement is kept).

 

Being that California is so dam expensive to live in already what is another $3.00 to $8.00 fee. These fees are also for electric charging stations......

"Their fees range from $3 on vehicle registrations to $8 for a “smog abatement fee” on newer vehicles; roughly $180 million is raised per year. The money pays for state programs that fund everything from electric-vehicle charging stations to the conversion of city bus fleets from diesel to natural gas."

 

California Approves $46.6 Million In Funding For Hydrogen Fueling Stations, But Only $2.8 Million For EV Charging Stations
Yep in the first tranche for "alternative powered vehicles" hydrogen fueling got $46.6 million, charging got $2.8 million. The buses in California are already 60% natural gas, so that is about over, but with the new funding California is thinking about converting the natural gas busses to electric improving air quality not one bit.

My main reason for commenting was the idea that private industry would quickly bring their own funds. Honda and Toyota have "loaned" money to First Element, but claim to have invested in the infrastructure. The loans only provided enough capital so that their favored company to win the contracts qualified for bids, and they expect to get paid back. It would be great if the 2013 claim of only $67 million for 68 stations (59 new with 9 existing) were true, but costs have been apparently much higher than that low-ball estimate. Many of these stations being built for 2021 (86 public total with existing included for $140M) will have a useful life of less than 10 years and only be able to fuel 100 cars a week. CARB now thinks that the average station will need $300,000 just to cover maintenance and operations to keep the lights on from the fund.

I'm all for going forward with the experiment. We should just not be surprised if when 2021 arrives and there are less than 10,000 fcv on the roads in california and they are still working out kinks in the infrastructure. I am hopeful there may be technical advances to lower costs. FCV running on methanol would drop refueling costs the most, metal hydride cost dropping might also help a great deal. If either happens the current stations will all need to get retrofitted. CARB's estimate in 2009 was 50,000 fcv in california by the end of 2017, now it has been forced to ask manufacturers and it is less than 35,000 in 2021. CARB is already saying they need more money to get those 30K+ on the road.

 

Ok, let's say someone buys a Nissan Leaf in California and personally pocketed over $10,000 taxpayers' $ plus $ to install home charger, solar, etc... ok, you're saying it is time to stop all taxpayer waste! 'cause incentives come from taxpayers. Apply for a rebate | Clean Vehicle Rebate Project

 

And how much tax dollars were spent on gasoline stations?

FCEVs get a California rebate of at least $5000, 6 more ZEV credits than a Leaf, plus 3 years of free fuel, in addition to the funds for the stations. Those are supplied by California or the car maker.

Only part of what you quoted is from the state of California, just the $5000 rebate. The rest is federal, and available to everyone in the country that wants a plug in or alternate power system for their home(they don't have to get a plug in for the PV credits). The credit for home chargers has ended.

 

I went to the link & it shows Leaf at $2,500. Honda Clarity @ $5,000. Hmm, wonder which vehicle got the g'bment more bang for the buck - zero emissions wise ... the one that can charge for free @home via PV solar, & can also travel beyond a hand full of 100 % subsidized stations? Or the one that has to run on temporarily cheep/non - renewable natural gas.
Seems like a fair question. Maybe not
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Probably the incentives should be moved to Fred's house of politics.

I personally think we should continue the fcv in southern california, but this pretending its not a pre commercial test is making it much more expensive than it needs to be. Asking for more tax money to commercialize on the east coast, when its not even working in LA seems foolish with tax money. I don't follow the reasoning that hybrids aren't insentivised anymore so fuel cells should be, but again that is all politics. I absolutely support toytota spending its own money on what it wants, and the federal government helping with R&D until these things either work well enough to go commercial, or fail so miserably there is no hope. That level though is high enough, I don't buy the argument that fuel cells need even more money because people will want them more than plug-ins.

 

Ok, let's say Hill buys a Nissan Leaf in California and personally could have pocketed over $10,000 of taxpayers' $ plus $ to install home charger, solar, etc...So, hill did not encourage this waste and did not take any taxpayers'$!

While you guys are complaining about H2, others are complaining about: Tesla Burns Taxpayers' Dollars Like A Corvette Burns Gas ...

 

or IOW, it would be better to change the subject. Ok understood

the rationale behind someone who gets incentivized for solar or incentivized for an electric car is that electricity is saved for other users and gas is saved for other users. Not so with a natural gas fuelled hydrogen car.
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