The real world MPG numbers scares me...

It's been stated here numerous times, but comparing a Honda hybrid to a Toyota, especially an HSD design (which is still more advanced than Hondas's assist system) is like comparing apples to oranges. Add to that, the Civic was and still is a compact. It still has vehicle dimensions of a compact and volumes, trunk and interior of a compact. And the sales strategy and market focust at Honda is still on the young, economy or first-time new-car driver.

Personal taste should be yoru deciding factor, however the Prius is the technically superior vehicle and still makes the strongest statement, whatever you imagine that to be.

I was not personally comfortable with the previous itiraton of the Civic Hybrid. It felt small and underpowered. It was a kid car. The Prius has a mature and finished feeling which is unmistakable for me when I hop into a new car. In addition passenger room in the Prius is first rate, especially in the back seat. The Prius auto cliamte system is also much more advanced than the Civic and better executed. And frankly the MFD and the various displays are both informational and provide good driver feedback.

But again, this is a personal choice issue for you. A car is more than just MPG, but it is a capital expense that you have to live with for many years to come. Make your choice with those facts in mind.

 

I think it's pretty well documented and accepted that the HCH has a slight edge over the Prius for highway mileage, especially when you go over 65MPH.

On the other hand, the Prius has a more significant MPG advantage in city driving, by using the battery more.

But *most* non-hybrid cars already get decent - or very good - MPG on the highway anyway, but suffer considerably in stop & go city driving. So which "mode" is the most in need of improvement?

As for Civic drivers not changing their habits as many Prius drivers do, this is pure marketing at work. As we know, Honda chose the approach of making their hybrids (Civic/Accord) look just like their non-hybrid counterpart. Toyota has taken the opposite approach with the Prius, making something that stands out more and flaunts the hybrid goodies with the MFD. Therefore, it is only common sense that the Prius will generally appeal more to those who either want to make a statement or stand out while the Civic/Accord will be better for those who like to "blend in" - but still be more fuel efficient/environmental. Therefore, such a statement about Civic drivers not changing their habits while Prius drivers do, does not surprise me at all, as this is largely an extension of their choice in vehicle.

One thing holds true with both cars - as with any other fuel-burning vehicle ever produced - driving conservatively will always yield better efficiency than driving aggressively.

Kevin

 

How is this possible ?

Doesn't the prius have a much better coefficient drag rating?

 

Lighter weight
Smaller frontal area
Less transmission energy loss

 

Well, my reasoning is as follows....

DISCLAIMER - I am not an engineer, nor pretend to be, so this is all speculation on my part combined with what I have heard...

The Prius is rated at 4.2L/100km and the HCH at 4.3L/100km on the highway, which both loosely translate to virtually the same 51MPG in US gallons.

The Prius curb weight is 31KG (~68lbs) heavier than the Civic.

The HCH has a 1.3L ICE, the Prius has a 1.5L. In addition, the Honda IMA technology is designed to "assist" acceleration and cruising speeds, while the Toyota systems works mostly at low speed and when strong acceleration is requested (please correct me if I am wrong on this).

Not sure about the aerodynamics of the Civic as I don't have those specs handy.

But based on those two simple facts, I would imagine the lighter HCH with the smaller ICE will suffer less of a MPG hit when pushing the speed.

Sources:
Honda Canada
Toyota Canada

Therefore my conclusion that the Civic would be a slightly better performer on the highway. But again, I'm no engineer...........

All said, I still believe Toyota has the superior approach, since city driving has much more room for improvement than highway driving.

Kevin

 

No no someone claimed the honda will do better at 65mph and higher...

And i was wondering how is it possible considering the prius has better coefficient drag rating.

You would thing the drag would play more at higher speeds....

 

Jonathan you are right... EPA figures are exactly that, nothing less, nothing more. auto manufacturers have not a shread of latitude reporting these figures. not one iota. anything anyone has heard to the contrary is total BS.

and another thing about the highway mileage. its been my extensive experience that 51 mpg on the highway is much much lower than i have experienced in real life. i can get DOWN to 51 mpg...but have to do nearly 70 mph to average that badly.

 

As I understand it's the manufacturer's themselves that do the testing they then submit the data to the EPA for verification. The tests are standardized but one could 'tweak' them to generate a slightly different set of values; e.g. report the whole testing range from cold startup to finish. As we all know the first 5 min are death to the averages. The EPA test begins after the engine has warmed up.

 

the Honda has to work harder to pull of the same horsepower...its rated at 110HP at 6000 rpms and the prius does it at an easy 5000 rpms, which engine do you think will have the best longevity?

 

My understanding is different: Lower results may be posted, but not higher.

I wish the EPA would post the following: "Actually knowing your FE may be harmful to your preconceptions"

 

BTW,

I recently drove a 120 mile round trip, with about 80 miles on cruise at 62 mph on a 40F day. Trip FE was 61 mpg. I benefit from altitude of about 5500 ft, so sea level is probably about 57 mpg. A HCH *might* match that, but I seriously doubt it could beat it.

 

I've never had the luck to spend any time behind the wheel of a FEH, so I was basically going on what the reviewers said. But if it's more of a constant ability to stay in EV, then the theory should still stand.

 

You cannot go wrong with a Civic. It's an excellent car from a maker with a commitment to quality. But the Prius is more car. If you get the same mpg from a heavier, larger, more powerful car, then the larger car is doing better.

But if you need economical transportation, you're still MUCH better off with a small, late-model used car, ideally a Civic or Corolla.

I do wish I could achieve Dave's mileage figures, though. At 75 mph (the freeway speed limit where I used to live) I was in the low-to-mid 40's. And overall I'm around 45 mpg. Last summer in Fargo I was up around 48. I'd do better if I never had any short drives, but this is the real world for me. I'm interested to see what I'll get this summer, as I now have a lot more long drives in the mix. Other than "feathering" into electric mode when I can, and occasional judicious use of the EV switch, I drive the same way as I always have.

 

re: actual mileage
my wife just drove our 2005 Prius back from Tennessee to Michigan, 640 miles,
and averaged 60mpg, actual 59.8 on refill calculation.
driving arount 63mph plus or minus a few mph.
i guess I'll just have to slow down.
approx 30,000 miles on the vehicle.
I don't think the epa rating is too far off.

 

Honda engines, especially those of the Civic, are well made and have great reliability. They have no problem running 6000 RPM, which I'm sure is a rare occurance anyway.

 

smaller electric and batt too.

 

We'll have to get Dave to post all his little secrets!
Other than knowing how is car works due to his Can-view etc... I"m sure there may be some tricks he lives by! B)