The "REAL" price of gasoline,,,

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by icarus, Jun 15, 2010.

  1. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    And if we practiced moderate conservation and fulfilled water and space heating use with solar heating, the space would be I suspect considerably less than one Delaware.
     
  2. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    "For those putting up diy made solar water heaters, more power to you. I was commenting on the high subsidies that did not work."

    Back to the original topic heading, the "real price of gasoline(energy),

    Defining how subsidies worked or didn't work is fairly complicated. For example with all the hidden subsidies for other forms of energy it is pretty hard to quantify how "well" direct subsidies work or don't work.

    If one argues that the cost of fossil fuel to the planet is one we can't continue to pay, then perhaps any subsidy to reduce fossil fuel use might be worth it.

    To spend time arguing about what the Carter administration could have/would have/ should have done does nothing to solve the very real problems before us. I would be all for cutting out all subsidies for RE if all other forms of energy were to lose all their subsidies as well. Then RE not only could out compete with fossil fuel, it would win hands down on an economic basis.

    Even now, PV solar can be competitive with fossil fuel in many cases with out tax incentives or utility rebates depending on metering plans and peak power rates. It pretty simple folks, we can make the changes we need to, we just need to recognize the cost/benefit and realize that the economics only get better going forward, not to mention the national security and economic stimulus as a result of infrastructure spending.

    And just to counter those who suggest that the kind of changes we need to make would be draconian: The simple fact is the average american uses way more energy than is required to live well. We live quite well, using net/net ~25% of the national average in total energy.
     
  3. rpatterman

    rpatterman Thinking Progressive

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    Quite clearly the subsidies for fossil fuels have not worked out either.
     
  4. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

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    Yup, Europeans use half the electricity that we do yet have an excellent standard of living. At our house we use ~ 25% less energy than the average Japanese household and we don't do anything exotic (household of 4, 1300 sqft house). We used ~32oo kWh last year. This year we'll use a bit more, but I've been pretty lax recording our usage (last year v. this year was a draw), but in the main it's been somewhat higher... colder winter and hotter summer. Still, we used 307 kWh in July, which is pretty damn good IMO.
     
  5. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    ^^ Exotic is in the eyes of the consumer. I bet you do outrageous things like turn off lights when nobody is in the room.
     
  6. skruse

    skruse Senior Member

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    Our electricity + natural gas bill has been less than $60 month for 21 years (2300 sq ft). We retrofitted the house to reach an Energy Efficiency Index of 1.0 (most homes are 10 to 20+). Payback period compared to other homes: 2.5 years. Our house is quieter (R-100 ceiling, R-45 walls, triple pane windows, double dual pane sliding glass doors, ceramic tile floors, tile roof, fully insulated garage) - I did most of the work myself because most contractors are skeptical or just plain won't do the work.

    Nuclear (fission) power requires huge subsidies and is akin to using a chain saw to cut butter: it is overkill and makes a mess. Space for photovoltaic and hot water panels is available on every existing roof (homes, schools, businesses, churches) and along highways (as Germany already does).

    Conservation and efficiency are the most cost effective as repeatedly identified by the Rocky Mountain Institute and the US Dept of Defense ("Winning the Oil Endgame").
     
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  7. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    That depends how you look at it. We could have developed more sustainable and less expensive energy sources, but oil has been subsidised to the point that people falsely think it's cheaper. So, we're still addicted. In most schools of thought, that would be judged a success.
     
  8. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

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    By exotic I mean PV or some of the excellent upgrades that Skruse did back in the day. We have a 70's tract home without much in the way of energy efficient upgrades (to the shell). We use CFLs, have a new fridge (that was easily the single best upgrade that we've done), and manage our usage well (like Sage pointed out). We have an evaporative cooler instead of an AC (you can do that here in CO), which is a huge plus. I pay attention to our usage and when I need to replace or upgrade a device that uses electricity, efficiency is a top priority.

    Case in point, when I had to replace the pump on our evap cooler, I was able to cut 30W off of the pump's draw without diminishing the specs (except the energy consumption) at all.

    Replacing our old refrigerator cut >70 kWh off of our monthly usage. Payback on that one is roughly 6 years.

    IMO, solar water heating should be standard on all new homes and commercial buildings. It's a no brainer. Does anybody have numbers on the cost of installing a solar water heating system in a new home vs a retrofit?
     
  9. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Tripp, is solar thermal installed in your home ?
     
  10. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    As an example on the thrifty side of consumption, on our recent 12 day sailing trip we consumed about 40 Ah, which at 12.8 V equals about 512 Wh, or about 0.5 kWh of electricity. This power was used for lighting, running the radios and instrumentation, and powering the diesel fired hot water system.

    Obviously this example doesn't translate to a household situation, since we weren't doing a lot of heating or washing clothes, but we were very comfortable. It doesn't take a lot of power to live well.

    Tom
     
  11. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    Tom, it would be interesting to know the total power consumption of your trip. You probably burned at least some diesel, and of course you 'borrowed' a bit from the wind. No doubt the power use is far less than it would have been on land, and a higher percentage of it would be renewable.

    Plus, the fun factor is higher. :)
     
  12. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Total diesel consumption for the entire trip was 3.6 gallons. This figure includes diesel burned by the engine for mechanical propulsion and electrical generation. It also includes the fuel burned by the diesel fired hot water system for domestic use (dish washing and a little bathing).

    The SOC of the battery was pretty much the same at the start and finish, so we can safely ignore it.

    On top of diesel fuel, we burned about a half gallon of gasoline for the outboard on the tender (dingy). Our dingy has a 2 hp four cycle Honda outboard. We used it extravagantly on this trip, but still burned less than a gallon of gas.

    The only other energy costs were electricity for the pumpout when we returned, and two or three bags of ice for the icebox. Food and dirty clothes were no different than at home.

    The running costs of a sailboat are pretty small. The fixed costs, on the other hand, are something I try not to think about.

    Tom
     
  13. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    The fixed costs of a house are mind-numbing, too. But at least they tend to appreciate in value instead of depreciate. Most years, I don't mind an inflationary economy at all.