The George W. Bush Poll

That's right... the war isn't being waged against the people of Iraq, but against the terrorists.

I said we have to be very careful about torture because our actions will drive moderate Muslims toward extremism little by little... that is why the ranks of the insurgency has remained somewhat constant even though we've been fighting, killing or capturing them... Squid implied it was unnecessary to think about the 'feelings' of the average muslim...

My point is that it's not sufficient to think of fighting the insurgency strictly in combat... we have to prevent people from joining. We have to stop making it so easy for them to find fresh new recruits every time we kill some more of them off... and to do that, yes we have to think about sensitivity. We have to win hearts & minds, and I don't think we're doing such a good job of that, especially with the scandals.

I wasn't saying that we are waging war against the Iraqi people, but until we make it clear with our actions that we aren't, we may be perceived that way...

 

You're correct malorn. However, We're not talking about a vacuum. The emotions in the region are going to make it very hard for us to prevail. It's not that someone stepped in in Irag. It's who stepped in. Unfortunately, the only country willing to do it was us. Also unfortunate is the opinion of many in the middle east regarding us. We're under a huge microscope and every little thing that we do there is going to get blown out of proportion if it will advance the cause of those who are against us.

My biggest issue with this whole sordid affair is how little thought seems to have gone into whether we should have gotten involved in this area. The evidence for going there in the first place seems specious. The things that are giong on there right now were easily predicted by someone being realistic about the situation in and around Iraq. Ultimately the people of Iraq are going to have to step-up to the plate and finish this. We can't do that for them. Vietnam should have taught us that.

 

YOU...Out of the gene pool!!!!!

Stop calling what occured at Abu Gahrib- torture...you are giving torture a "good" name. Was their treatment disrespectful and shameful for us..yes, TORTURE, c'mon...no blood, no damage....there was no TORTURE. Cutting off peoples heads on video...THAT's torture!


OMG...I can't get to heaven, a woman touched my body...LMAO!!!!!

As far as having higher standards Mystery....That indeed is how we are rewqarded by the man upstairs. I, for one, WANT to be better than the terrorists. But make no mistake, if it is me or them, they will DIE!!!!!!! I guarantee, they want me dead.

 

I think Bush and co did an awful job planning to win the peace, which in many cases is as important as winning the war. I don't have any great answers abouthow that should be done. On a gut level if the US cuts and runs now we will pay for it for decades, and with three young sons that is the last thing I want.

On another level I am very tired of hearing about how BAD and unfair the US is in the world. Mystery Squid made the point about the liberal establishment, and I agree with him whole-heartedly. Many of my liberal in-laws would bring EVERY soldier back to the states from EVERYWHERE in the world and retreat into an isolationist utopia. I know that the US is far form perfect, but in relative terms the world has been a fairly peaceful place since the US became the world's policeman.

 

If you don't understand their culture, then you might not understand how badly the were insulted by those soldiers... I've tried to think of an analogy in western culture, but i don't think there is one that is quite so bad...

No... cutting off people's heads on video is called execution, not torture. Torture necessarily implies that the ultimate result is that their spirit is broken and they become putty for you to extract information from or whatever... execution is execution.

 

KMO, are you saying that the victims in the Pentagon and WTC are rats or the osama minions? It's not clear what you mean here and can be interpretted in two VERY different ways.

 

I don't understand this idea of the liberal establishment... as if liberals are calling the shots in the world and this country RIGHT NOW and are causing all of the world's problems...

Last time I checked, all 3 branches of government are decidedly leaning toward the right, and liberals are only a small nuisance to the decidedly conservative agenda...

It seems to me that conservatives like to scare people with reactionary talk like "liberals are EVERYWHERE, they're in COMPLETE control of the government... they're coming to GET YOU WHILE YOU SLEEP...".. while in reality, the conservatives easily call the shots today...

Case in point... you say your stupid in-laws want the troops to come home everywhere, but that we're much better off right now the way it is with the US being Team America World Police... think about that... who's policy is in place right now? certainly not your in-laws. not a very good example, huh?

the liberals aren't in control... conservatives are, and from the sounds of it, you're trying to drum up reactionary feelings against the "liberal scourge" (even though liberals don't call the shots) so you can get more of your agenda through...

 

There you have it, INSULT = TORTURE

Nope, nope, nope...you will NEVER convince any rational person that TORTURE, in a true wartime setting, means anything but physical pain and suffering. I know, our kids say their teacher tortures them, I think it is torture to sit through a lousy movie...doesn't make it so....

You simply bought into the anti-american hype that called it torture.

I have the analogy you are looking for....I am of german ancestry...calling me a NAZI is torture...using the n-word is torture...you gonna GO there????

Your position is untenable! Oh, I think KMO meant EXACTLY what they said!!!!

 

It's more important. And noone does. Unfortunately, we've made a big, tasty, shit sandwich and now we've gotta eat it.

Isolationism isn't the answer. It never was. Actually, since the fall of the USSR there has been a tremendous amount of violence around the globe. This is the result of the completely irresponsible way the US and USSR sparred with each other throughout the cold war. With the demise of the USSR global stability has weakened. That's the nature of a multipolar world. It will be interesting to see what sort of impact the rise of China will have on global political stability, if any.

The left is running its mouth because the right has done a very poor job since Afghanistan (which was really done about as well as it could have been done). Rummy's arrogance and clumsiness has exascerbated all sorts of tensions. He should have been canned. It's odd that this administration didn't listen to the folks with military experience. Instead, it placed it's faith in the wolfowitz/rumsfeld camp and now a lot of good people are paying for it. I despise this administration for their cavalier use of the military. That's why I got out. Unreconcilable differences between me and the CINC.

 

The election results over the last three decades are the result of two things in my opinion:
1. The democratic party moving markedly to the left especially on social issues and the military.
2. The liberalization of American Media. I was listening to an interview with Mike Wallace on NPR today and he said that the media has changed in his 38 years on 60 minutes. The media has gone from reporting the facts or at least making an attempt to, to trying creating the political agenda for the country.

Until these two issues are dealt with in a meaningful way, the country will continue to tilt towards the Republicans. I am not some right-wing nut job, I have voted for the best person in every election which included a vote for a Democratic Senator in the last election.

 

Torture comes in many forms. Physical, mental, emotional, spiritual... I reference the end of 1984... (hope i didn't spoil that for anyone)

one could argue that what we did to those prisoners were mental, emotional, or spiritual torture.

 

Your equation is incorrect:

HUMILIATION = TORTURE

While humiliation isn't the same it can easily motivate just as well or better. You've gotta remember that being essential dominated by a woman is utterly humiliating to a man in that culture regardless of the fact that it's every seventh grade boys fantasy here.

As LM said earlier, there probably isn't an equivalent in Western culture.

 

I think what you see is the lack of strong leadership of the Democratic party, and not a particular shift toward the left. Our last great liberal president, IMHO, was JFK... in a way, a huge part of the liberal spirit died when he and his brother were assassinated, and the Democratic party has become more and more aimless...

The media isn't liberal... it's controversy and scandal obsessed... more than any one political bending, the media LOVES stories that stir up controversy...

Be it a Presidential sex scandal, or a war in Iraq... the media would appear to take the side that would stir up the most trouble.

I don't disagree with you that the 4th estate is in miserable form today, though.

I would argue that the liberal's presence isn't destroying america... their ABSENCE has! There needs to be balance.

I'm personally proud to be a liberal, and it worries me that more and more people continue to be MORE reactionary against liberals even as liberals' fortunes wane...

 

The media is nolonger a new/information service. It's another wing of the entertainment industry and is now essentially worthless unless you're a Jerry Springer fan. I would argue that this is generally true at every level (local, state, country, etc). It's very sad. People just wanna be entertained. They don't really care about substance/relevance.

 

ARE YOU SERIOUS?????

Sticks and stones can break my bones....

Oh, I see your point....I am so embarassed...so HUMILIATED....I'm being TORTURED here!

My son was TORTURED in boot camp. Hazing at colleges is ALL torture. If I tear my pants at Wal-mart and people see my little p*nis, I will be UTTERLY tortured. Don't get me wrong...I don't think we should have done it...it was below us and embarassing...BUT, GET OVER IT! It wasn't torture.

You are demeaning every soldier who has been tortured, now and in the future. I can see it now...our captured soldiers are caught and REALLY tortured and they can just say, tit for tat...and you know what....YOU won't be able to object...you have SOLD your soul!

 

Have you ever read the book "1984" ?

Torture goes way beyond beating someone up. True torture f*cks with the victims heart, mind, and soul...

You don't truly break someone until you do it all.

 

The news and political arms of this country are broken. The middle (purple) needs to standup and delivery the backhanded pimp slap necessary to repair the damage that goes back years. The Center needs to take this country back from the extremists on both sides who have hijacked it.

 

I agree. The media is teh suck.

It's gotten so obsessed with viewership, ratings, and money, just like anything else on TV.

I have no idea what can be done better with it though. It seems like there just aren't any real journalists anymore.

 

And my point is that we have to stop moderates from even considering extremism and terrorism... or else the insurgency will never let up. The numbers of the insurgency has not significantly dropped, even though we've been capturing and killing the insurgency...

We have to win hearts & minds, and I don't think we're doing that.