The George W. Bush Poll

Easy, there, imntacrook. Take a deep breath and let it out slowly. You're going to give yourself a heart attack or pop a blood vessel if you don't let up. Remember, you can't be kind to others until you're kind to yourself. Relax, you're among friends.

 

You claim that my post has so many fallacious arguments and disconnected logic. Simply, intrinsically one could claim exactly the same about your responses. You seem to be completely avoiding the point of my initial response, that is so exhibited through mankind’s history among those, who are directly or indirectly involved with military, despite any given ideology or allegiance. Again, I was drawing a comparison of misguided politicians and their cronies to utilize a precious resource such as young and brave for their own cause, completely encapsulating them with a very powerful and suggestive brainwashing scheme. It’s a fact that most of the military oriented people don’t tend to analyze the real meaning behind political maneuverings as they concentrate on their skills that are relegated to the combat.
A) I don’t think I am alone completely disclaiming that American involvement in Vietnam was a “noble†cause. Even McNamara himself admitted not long time ago that it was a mistake. Surely enough you had helped the Southern Vietnamese fighting Vietcong but the premise of the whole war was flawed, and it should have been completely left out to the Vietnamese without our involvement. We haven’t accomplished anything other than massive deaths of innocent people and soldiers on either side, with horrendous destruction of Vietnam, Cambodia and partially Laos. We have had dropped more bomb tonnage on Laos during that conflict than during the entire WWII and what has that achieved other than rising individual stockholders investments in the military industrial complex?
I think you should checkout a very reflective documentary by Peter Davis, “Hearts and Minds†on DVD exposing our top ranking military officials and their attitudes and disrespect to any human being other than the man wearing an American uniform. Those individuals were devoid of any capability to recognize universal values of humanity. Not to say that Vietcong were conducting themselves any better, but that’s beyond the point. Vietnamese conflict of the North and the South had nothing to do with the threat to the USA. Simply, again it was a war against communist ideology, as some right-wingers tend to call an evil ideology. Wars against ideologies are utopian especially when waged by outsiders. Wars against enemies might have a just cause; that is when one country is invaded and is trying to defend itself, hence the justified American involvement in the WWII. It was a direct attack on a sovereignty of our nation.
If some countries are willing to embrace any ideology it’s not our duty nor our responsibility to preach, to forcefully engage in changing other nation’s notion of their political discourse, as long as that discourse is not directly attacking our country. Yes, we need the military to be vigilant of the “rogue states†and especially IMPECCABLE intelligence to rightfully infiltrate in case any direct danger may arise. Vietnam was an example of wrong interference, so was Soviet Union’s interference in Afghanistan, even thought they were on the opposite spectrum of ideology.
B.) Clarification: any ideologue will utilize religious connotations to their causes. So did the Nazis, during their raise to power, as it happened that Germany was predominantly a Christian nation and still is, the usage of Christianity in the propaganda was ubiquitous. So, my point was that fascists in this case, the Nazis, used religion for brainwashing. Sorry for confusion, but my point was to stress the significance of misuse of religion in propaganda and that happens every day with many politicians globally.
C) Exactly, I happen to have grandparents who were right in the middle of the WWII conflict and were very keen on studying and writing about certain events in Germany during the raise of the NSDAP party, and I was very well privileged and privy to hear with my own ears Goebbels’ speeches on tape, and also reading many of the transcripts. Those speeches were directed to the extreme right of the Nazi party and especially the military elite. The tone and the notions of these speeches are very reminiscent of what I hear now days from neo-cons. “God is on our sideâ€, “We are the only democracyâ€, “Our nation is the greatest and the bravestâ€, “Our soldiers are the greatest heroesâ€, on and on and on. A typical propagandist demagoguery, paired with chauvinistic nationalism and righteousness, all under one umbrella of “noble causeâ€, like you stated. None of the initial Goebbels’ speeches were talking about killing the other people or subjugating people of other nations (exception would be his rants full of antisemitism), the speeches were always presenting threatened Germany from its neighbors, claiming that Poland and France are about to invade Germany and Germany has to, for the sake of democracy protect itself, by investing in military complex and show it’s resolute stance for freedom.
D) would you like me to pin another medal to your lapel? You show a proclivity for admiration and recognition. Perhaps you could display your patriotic duty with more modesty.
E) I FULLY RECOGNIZE the immensity of humanitarian involvement of our citizens on the global scale. Granted, I also recognize several positive aspects in official governmental policies when it comes to help worldwide in variety of causes. But I DO NOT recognize waged wars in foreign countries that supposedly are just no matter what. As much we might be helping logistically and financially in the world, at the same time we are tarnishing our image of being a great benefactor. And Iraq involvement certainly does not help. In general, our military presence globally is considered as a form of bullying, as much as we want to think that we are the freedom givers and freedom care takers. Surely, you must be deluding yourself, just get out, leave and go to any country where our soldiers are stationed and find out if their presence is REALLY appreciated. Even our greatest allies such as Japan, Korea, Turkey, Germany, and Italy have masses of people that are being extremely displeased with our presence, and especially our nonchalant, hubristic and bullying conducts.
F) This point is really an example of “disconnected logic†on your part. These issues are the origins of ideological struggles (your own involvement in Vietnam proves it), such as revolutions and counter revolutions, coup d’etats, raises and falls of dictatorships, civil wars, sectarian wars etc. Your derision of a significance of social issues is somewhat astounding. Social issues are a core reason why mankind has been struggling for centuries with injustices. Even the villains in their own propaganda are always embracing social values as the main reason behind their cause and often hijacking the masses with their propagandism. How many examples should I give you? The French Revolution? The Civil War? The Russian Revolution? The Chinese Revolutions? Or even few decades back Polish Solidarity Movement? Or Russian Perestroika? Or South African Reconciliation?
Wake up. Social issues is what makes mankind struggle with its inevitable evolution. And in these cases the strong military was not a right tool to solve them. You seem to think, that countries can only exist by having a strong military presence, and the history proves you wrong. All greatest empires did fall and there are many nations even now, that have very small military expenditures and thrive with prosperity and justice.
G) I don’t pay a political allegiance to the Democratic Party, so you might as well contact those mentioned representatives yourself with whatever beef you have had instilled in you. I think you are venting your anger over your own participation in Vietnam that didn’t spawn the fruits of the ideology you are strongly behind.
I am sorry, but I think you’ve been used by someone else for his/her own causes. You seem not want to recognize it, which is fair, since you have endangered your life and perhaps in your mind you will always think that it was for the noble cause. In no way I want to diminish your service and your sacrifices for which I’d like to show dutiful respect, hence my replies will not show any diminutive ribbing banter like responses. I wish you would abide to the same rule. By the way, I’m a petit size weighting 102 lbs and certainly don’t hate myself!

 

But Maggie, aren't you focusing on the best aspects of liberalism?

I really don't think either party has it all.. we need a third party.... one that has charctersistics of both.
But parties never want to be "realistic" and run down the middle, because that doesn't score points!.

For instance.. did you notice when the parties were running against Bush.. they never took the good things of Bush and combined them with the Good things of the other parites?
They had to play extremes!
Why? Because when there is a "re-election" they know they cannot compete with the existing party if they are only close, their only hope is to be completely different?
And so the parites remain polarized against each other!.. I think its stupid but thats the way it is?

Why can't we take what both parites are doing and make a better party?

I do still remember that the peace loving liberal of President Carter could not get our hostages free for 18 months!!!! Why?... but what happened as soon as Pres Regan was brought in?.. they released them?... why?...
Maybe they knew someone with some balls just stepped on the stage and they were afraid for their skins!

A peace loving leader only stimulates and fuels terrorists!...
We need a peace loving leader that also understands the darker side of human nature if they will not listen to peace!...
What do you do with your kid?... you try to do it the easy way... but if that doesn't work, then they get the hard way!

What happens when kids or any human is only presented the easy way??? they see it as a weakness on your part and will run you over!

Its funny how I see families that won't work... its usually because there is no one playing the role of father in the house.... that role is Love!... but mixed with discipline!

Any leader that doesn't understand that, cannot run a family, business, or country!

 

Bravo, well said maggie.

imntacrook, take a deep breath.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with you on the notion of alternative political avenues and consecutively new parties and this is the main reason why I am registered as independent.
Your observations are very astute and right to the point, and I only wish, like yourself, that both main existing parties would resort to some constructive moderation. Neither liberal/Democrat nor conservative/Republican identities have real meaning today with the issues that are so polarized. With some of my views I could fit perfectly to either of the parties. The platforms seem to be hijacked to the extreme from both parties. I am trying to be an observant, nonconformist to either of the political avenues, constantly raising questions, reevaluating their platforms as that is the only way one can make a constructive improvements, instead of blind submission as it is manifested by many.
Ultimately, both parties are destroying our nation, ripping it apart, polarizing without even being aware of it. This reminds me of so many historical examples that are available to us but all we need is leadership, a REAL leadership, leadership that speaks to the masses, the whole country, the whole union, not only it’s own party and their beneficiaries. I feel powerless as there is no way of having an honest debate any more about any issues other than resorting to labeling and name calling. Truly sad. As much as I love my country I get the feeling as a whole we are so spoiled and with all the riches and all the accomplishments we are falling apart as a united nation.
I am not sure if I am right or wrong, I hope that I am right, and I am speaking out of my heart, but I am also always eager to expose myself to new better ideas, and I am far from being a perfect human being as there is no such thing as a perfect human being. And I would only hope that such outlook would be more proliferated and people would have at least a common ground to debate the issues at stake.

Again, thank you for your constructive post that adds to the debate, rather than instilling hate and division.

I would like to add that as of relatively young age I don’t have any peers that with whom I could even discuss issues that our country is facing. I wish there would be more involved.

 

I concur. The benefit and curse of our political system is that it acts short-term. While we need long-term, sustainable solutions, politics responds to short-term "crises." Even when a situation is foreseen (New Orleans and tropical cyclones), nothing is done. Politicians follow, they do not lead.

Regardless of the figurehead, i.e., George Bush, our system is dynamic based on the short-term. Clinton supposedly produced a balanced budget with a "surplus" and Bush has produced, and continues to add to, the largest deficits in US history. We would not be any happier if Bush had produced a balanced budget and surplus, other than living within our means and not facing increasing inflation.

 

Humm... well I'm pleased to see I'm not on your ignore list Maggie!... :lol:
I was sure I had made you mad enough to flip in the past.
And I was truely touched to see that we had something in common.... its kinda nice for a change!

Although we get intense.... I think there is a large majority of us that feel that way... we all like each other out here and want to feel good about each other, but the issues can cause division. Even so in our country.

I always appreciate when someone speaks out of thier heart... I do alot of that myself and when people don't fall in agreement with me its easy to feel exposed and wounded. The more people expose thier heart, the more vulnerable they feel to having spears chunked right it... so as a result, people seldom expose thier heart and dance around issues instead.

There are many things we don't see eye to eye on, but there are also many we do.... but I have that same problem with my wife! :lol:

Well you can speak for yourself here!.... haven't you seen my avatar!

Humm..now I wonder just how young you really are or how old you think we are?

 

thank you for interjecting a dose of freshness to the heaviness of the thread, from now on you can call me Abby Normal, or if you really want to be polite I could settle for Inga.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

as for my age you can see it in my profile

 

Oh thanks.. now I really feel old....

 

There is good opportunity for misunderstanding and differences of opinion when we come from so many different value systems and eras.

I remember things.... crap things that happened when I was a child that now forms my opinions and value systems that causes me to not want it to happen again!....

The young have not seen as much and so they think some of the older folks worry about things that are unfounded.

Everyone in thier right mind hates war, but we hate worse the byproduct of letting the enemy sleep with us and integrate into our schools and get into political positions of power.

Think about it?.... We got so liberal that we "allow" any religion to set up a church on any corner... even a devil church that professes openly that they worship the devil!...
This country was founded on and by Christian values and in the act of being "tolerant" we let them take over!..... now our own tolerance is not reciprocated by them and they are in turn "intolerant" of us and our Christian values of which our constitution was formed around in the first place?

They want to be able take you to court if you disallow them to worship freely, yet they dont' want you to mention your God in schools or public places because it "offends" them?

Some of us that are older have seen society degrade from the brady bunch family to Howard Stern on TV and wonder why we are in trouble. Recently even Howard admitted he is alone without friends.. only his girlfriend. The byproduct of his ways and lifestyle has brought him the fruit of dryness and emptiness... like some whole countries that live in similiar promiscuos lifestyles.

Liberal thinking with balance is good, just like conservative thinking with balance is good... but the extremist ruin it for everybody.

If both parties could come towards the middle we would all have it better and the contentions wouldn't be there.

It's ok to allow grace for those that don't understand our beliefs and our ways, but grace doesn't mean they get to take over and steal our country and rewrite its laws so that we are illegal and breaking the law if we worship God in public? We let them worship thier God, but they don't want us to do the same?

The laws that founded this country was created and put in place NOT to remove our identity, but to protect it!
Laws that were intended for good have been twisted for bad.

The young doesn't understand these things well.... they just haven't lived long enough yet on the planet!........if we are still on one piece, they too will have the same problem when they get old and have endured the pain of foolish leaders and the young want to repeat the same mistakes all over again!

Our laws were founded in what was supposed to be an outlook of "love" or christian values towards all those that come and want to co-mingle with us from other countries. That does not mean when they are dead wrong from thousands of years of twisted thinking, that they can come from thier cursed countries where nothing will even grow and bring thier beliefs and change ours with thiers so our country too can be cursed?

Did you know that the land "gaza strip" that was given up by Israel recently, the same land that florished out of the desert and grows the biggest, sweetest, fruits in tall the world every since they were given that land back in 1948, now is already being cursed again and will not produce the fruit it did just a few months ago?
I don't want thier curses here either!

If they want a better way and reach out to us for help and want to integrate into our society, they can do so.
But that doesn't mean they take over and change our laws and our values.

Its funny..the same thing happens in the hospital.. patients come in for help to trained professionals.. but then they want to tell the staff how and what to do!

There is merit to wanting to preserve what we have and not let it get defiled. We are not perfect, but our system affords a prosperous life for many millions. If you are reading this and it doesn't work for you, then you have never learned the principles of basic living and should try how good life is in the middle east or even somewhere else. If you can't make it in this country.... you can't make it anywhere!!!!

I too have often felt like walking away from this supposed good life and living the rest of my days in central america or some place similiar to get away from the stupid politics and things that go on here.
But the grass on that side of the fence will have its own bugs and termites to kill.

You want to see an interesting movie, go rent "15 minutes" beware of the strong verbal language... its rated R.... but its a powerful statement of how our liberal thinking and laws have opened us up to rediculous abuse.

I'm not that old, but if you live very long at all, you will witness the pendelum swing both ways between Republican and Democrat...... Heres how it goes:
1. We vote republicans in office and the good we like, but the bad part of them we hate..... we take for granted the good and the bad starts grating on us and so we attempt to remove the bad.... we forget how we hated the democrats because enough time has passed so we look to them for our salvation and vote them in hoping for change......
2. We get change and for a season we are happy, until we realize the bad that they too have and with a little time we attempt to vote back in a republican because again, we forgot their bad!... the cycle continues back and forth, back and forth.

I think we need to toss the whole democrat, republican thing and start over. All it does is cloud the issues.... but our problem is we need to have the red shirts and the blue shirts, we require two teams on a battlefield so we don't get confused as to who is on what side?

Haven't we realized, we don't have two sides, but many many issues?
Anybody who feels conservative about "all" things is a fool as well as anyone who feels liberal about all things are too!.... so why do we have parties that reflect that?

We used to use morals as our base..... but now its called liberal and conservative.... well just what does that mean exactly?
I don't think thats what is written all over our legal monuments, the white house, yet we want to use the constitution to protect our perverted values and at the same time change it when it doesn't line up?

We spend money that says "IN God we trust" on it as a reminder to ourselves of what founded this country and we didn't want to forget it so we put it on our money.

We are along way from trusting God!... but it's still on our money!

Traditional values can be valuable or a curse that refuses to change with the times.

Some things need to change but principles never change. If you plant apples seeds you will most definately get apple trees!... yet we plant seeds of perversion, and liberal thinking to the point of allowing "anything and everything" and wonder why we see a crop of screwed up kids that have grown up into screwed up leaders running a screwed up in trouble country?

If we want our country to have a leader... first find one that knows how to run his own affairs and is not so self centered that he can't even love his own familiy and kids!..... We only vote in those that will protect our financial interest.... Its all about the money and protecting our cozy comfy lifestyle.

We don't vote for the big picture.. only to live for today!

I hope this discussion helps us all to realize that many of the things we argue about are erroneus because we all want the same things, but are distracted and disagree as to how and who can get them.

Some of use are retired and sit at home on the couch day after day and want our health and our grandkids lives to be good and what we presently have fought for over the years to be sustained so we vote with that value system in mind.

Then we have the young that want to discover and make thier mark and enact change for good to demonstate thier creativity and be acknoledged in a world ruled by the older so we vote with that in mind.

Some live in fear with an awareness of thier vulnerablity so they want to preserve the environment for the future, others only live for today or have no fear of the future so they disregard preservation of anything for the future....even thier finances!

The older see the young as foolish and unlearned, the young see the older as forgotten anything they ever knew and now are not pertenent to whats really going on today and the new technology and so should not be acknoledged.

The bottom line, is the young needs the knowledge, wisdom, stability, and guidance from the old.
The old need the energy, resilentcy, creativity, vision, and strength and courage of the young.

We all need to respect each other and value each other for our unique gifts and enlightenment.

On a forum, the new bring in objective thinking that challenges what has always been accepted as understood but not.... and the veterans bring the meat and substance and make it all happen!

 

Thanks JackDodge! I appreciate the advice. Actually the people who know me often say I'm too "laid back". I think that written words without inflection and good punctuation often give the reader an incorrect impression of the writers attitude.

 

That's true, the written word is pretty one-dimensional isn't it? There's just too much polarization in our country right now. Too many people who don't listen and try to understand someone else's opinion. Prius owners perhaps don't quite appreciate that we're further ahead of the curve than the rest of the country. And, it's enlightening to see how wide the demographics are for this car. It's not just a tree-hugger's car. PC can be the one place you can go without worrying about getting flamed for your opinion and it seems to be the one place where people aren't so polarized. We're all Prius owners eh? At least most of us.