The deluded statements about Prius brakes NOT being a safety issue

Re: Dealing with this contention once and (hopefully) for all

I'll go on the record with that too.

Seeing people drop the pedal to stop and drop it to start, resulting in wheels skidding & spinning, is routine here. That's clearly the wrong approach for driving traditional vehicles on snow. Yet, they don't give much thought to the circumstances and do it anyway.

So, feeling that brief hybrid pulse then reacting under the assumption that something just failed makes sense. After all, many of the reports state the driver thought something went wrong.

Now some are angry at the lack of reaction from informed owners who knew it was an automatic system response similar to TC, ABS, and VSC.

That means what we want now is an official update followed by the formal hearing. Closure is necessary when fear is felt, regardless of the reason it happened.
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A bovine's ocular organ.

 

Re: Dealing with this contention once and (hopefully) for all

Russell,
With all due respect, it seems to me you clearly HAVE made up your mind about the matter. And, I'm so weary of hearing this line of thought from those "veterans" to this, and your venue. Toyota's engineers have determined there to be a defect and are making attempts to repair said defect. It's clearly not the way the car should operate.

I do, however, have to take your editorial for just your opinion on the matter. And, as your website is clearly sponsored by Toyota, as evident by the Toyota logo atop the sponsor list, perhaps a biased one with a reason to defend Toyota's reputation and products, for your own future benefit.

I have no such reason to defend Toyota. I own a 2010 Prius that I love driving and enjoy owning. It's had the brake dropout happen twice now. The first time it extended my stopping distance to the point I almost took out my mailbox in front of my house. I am NOT a reckless man prone to reckless driving. I leave plenty of room in front of me when in traffic. I don't tailgate nor do I perform sudden stops.

It is NOT "just a feeling". It's a defect plain and simple, and one that for some odd reason, a lot of prior generation owners have made mention of but, I think, not loudly enough. I think that's in part ot early adopter mentality. Many have the mindset that they're special...with special talents and skills that set them apart from the rest of the driving world...with a special car that only they can relate and drive properly...and as such they have to adjust to the car with all its defects and quirks. That not just anyone "deserves" to drive a Prius, you have to be special and qualified and different from the rest of the driving world. That's BS. I wish EVERY car on the road was a Prius. The world would be a cleaner place if so.

So, time will tell who's right in this. I can tell you right now with my own personal driving experience and evidence that its' a real issue that may have real safety consequences for some people. I've learned to adapt to it and it's not for me, at this point. But, if we're ever going to get to the point where the Prius is seen as an average car driven by more than some enviornmentalist elite crowd, then the braking system should work at least as it does in every other car and should NOT ever result in someone staining their pants (no, that didn't happen to me!) the first time they experience this effect. Brings a whole new meaning to the old Toyota campaign "Oh, what a feeling!"!

 

Logic = not to be found in above post

-Brad

 

I don't see the issue. Toyota has recognized there is an issue...there's a fix. They'll fix the cars...thats that. How is there something to even debate?

Once upon a time I had a Ford Explorer. Cruise control caused fires (figure that one out!)...Ford replaced the cruise control. Firestone tires seperated causing rollovers...I bought new tires...they were crappy tires anyways. I didn't cry and I wasn't afraid to drive my truck. Even then, if you were a studious owner really the tread seperation could never happen to you because you regularly inspected your tires for uneven wear and seperation.

I don't get it...its a very complex peice of machinery...with components made from many different manufacturers, and when a user purchases it and uses it they adopt certain risks. As long as the manufacturer is willing to step up and address issues that come up at no cost to the consumer I don't see the issue. Nothing's perfect guys...your oven might explode...your house might fall down. Your granite countertops might irradiate you with radon. Its a dangerous world.

 

Just say what you mean

Bighouse, look, you've misinterpreted a few things.

1. Toyota did sponsor my Prius Drive Thru project last summer. I've left those banners up, well, just because. I haven't seen dime on from Toyota from early last year. So, no, I'm not really sponsored by Toyota.

That said, even if I was, ask anyone who knows me well, I'd be the first to slam Toyota's collective forehead against the wall if I had reason to.

If you think I'm shilling for Toyota, you're sadly mistaken. I have no reason to defend Toyota other than my own beliefs and experiences.

2. We can agree to disagree on what constitutes a defect. As I said in the editorial, is the Prius ICE stopping at a light a "defect" or is it simply one of the major differences between Prius and standard cars?

3. I always have difficulty piercing others' metaphysical maunderings. I'm not sure your assessment of my psychology as a Prius owner is accurate nor am I sure how that has bearing on the issue. However, I am an informed Prius owner. That description might be apt if I'd only had the vehicle for one week.

And it's not a matter of condescension towards new owners, that's just your way of saying, "I'm ignoring your argument because I don't like the idea you may know more facts." Arrogant? No less arrogant than declaring the vehicle is defective without more than one near-miss mailbox experience. As I said, until I am presented with facts to the contrary, I'll stick to what I know to be true. Seems like a sensible course of action.

4. Apparently we both want Prius to be a mainstream vehicle. I would argue it is. The results of the differences in operation and driver experience is what we're seeing right now. And no, I don't think it's a good idea that Prius should mimic standard vehicles to make new owners feel more secure. New owners should take the vehicle as it is. As it is, it appears to me, to work just fine. But yours and my opinion don't mean crap here. If Toyota thinks the car will be more successful with a "standard braking experience" they'll probably change it as Toyota is in the business of selling cars, not making hybrid geeks happy or mainstream owners insecure. If that results in losses to the efficiency of the regenerative braking system, then, as I said, I suspect that is a sacrifice that Toyota will make.

 

Please buy a Honda Insight.

 

And my annoying personality aside

Ignore me, focus on what John is saying above. That dude has forgotten more about the Prius than I'll ever know.

This isn't an issue of "veteran" owners versus new owners. That attitude just infantilizes new owners and absolves of them of the responsibility to be rational.

 

I've said this to my wife many times, I primarily drive the Lexus and when I get into the Prius there is definately an "adjustment" to the braking. Often times when getting on the brakes hard in our Gen 2 there seems like theres a zone where we're not getting any braking as you transition between the regenerative brakes and the service brakes. It can be very unsettling when you aren't used to it. My wife never feels it, she's a much more cautious driver than I am and applies braking very smoothly. My guess is she rarely even uses the service brakes.

I'll admit, it feels like the brakes let go at times...and it certainly doesn't feel smooth or linear. However, the brakes have never let us down. Assuming the issue in the Gen III is the same.

Moral of the story? Stay on the brakes.

Hybrid car isn't for everyone.

 

I said "issue" in my statement, and I should clarify.

Toyota has never publically said that the issue is a safety issue. It officially told Japanese safety officials that it was not a problem. It later told them they have fixed the problem.

The problem that seems to be agreed upon is that there is a loss of brake effectiveness (reduced braking, not brake failure) for 1 second or less on the automated change from regenerate braking to frictionbraking based on sensor input (this means at speeds above the automated switchover of 7mph).

The Japanese and American safety agencies have open investigations with the issue. This means it has passed the hurdle of reports, to likely incidents. Neither agency has published conclusions yet. I can find you links to the reports and why the us agencies considers this a serious issue, I just don't have time now to track them down.

Please take the rest of this with a grain of salt since it is hearsay and rumor. On Wednesday two of my sources informed me that the Japanese government had whistle blower documents about this issue, and that they were fed up with toyota, and would get them to recall the prius. The threat was that if toyota did not recall the vehicles they would make these documents public and begin legal action on a cover up. They were fed up that toyota miscatagorizing reduced braking as reduced braking feel. One of these sources also pointed to sensors that did not work properly at certain vibrations. This points to a possible explanation for the problem. Certain rare driving conditions cause a problem with the sensors, then a software bug with the braking control logic does not properly transition the car from regenerative to hydrolic braking. The good news is that ken's sources say that the corrected software handles this transition well. With well behaving software the infrequent problem with braking sensors is handled properly. Part of the reason I am fed up with certain posters is that they directly claim knowledge that is directly contradicted by likely facts. Gen 2 does not use the same sensors, the same regenerant braking motors, or even the same brakes. Though gen 2 may have software problems these would present themselves differently on different hardware.

 

hmmm...insider information sources..."whistle blower documents"..."cover up"...wow, this is getting interesting- anyone wanna bet this is going to make some movie producer a lot of money in the theaters down the road??? If what you are saying is true, then all of this will eventually see the light of day. Truth has a way of eventually reaching the surface.

 

I'll never understand humans...

...And their love for conspiracies. Again, I think it's a way of removing any responsibility they should take themselves, "What could I do, they were plotting against me?!"

Here's a version of one my favorite Twitter comebacks; "Links or it didn't happen"

We're way past hearsay in the age of the hyperlink.

 

Re: I'll never understand humans...

I, for one, will await a lot more reliable information to rise to the surface before I see cover-ups. I'm still going with the belief that Toyota heard complaints from customers, looked into the matter well before any government agency asked them too, found a deficiency in the braking system, fixed the cars on the assembly line and is in the process of preparing a fix for the cars already sold. Given the timeline of events that all seems reasonable to me.

I don't think it needs to be any more difficult or complex than that...but maybe I'm niave. Either way, time will tell.

However, if by "I think it's a way of removing any responsibility they should take themselves" you're blaming the driver for lack of driving skills/talents/magicabilities/whatever in reacting to the loss of braking sensation effect, then we do have a point of disagreement.

 

This explains precisely why I believe that the fix coming this week is a 'customer satisfaction' remedy rather than a safety fix. The software adjustment will make the braking feel more linear as SWO3ES noted so that the ones newer to the Prius and its technology will be more at home and more comfortable in owning it and driving it.

Even though I and others will a lot of seat time in the hybrids can't feel any differences doesn't mean that someone new to them feel the same. So to minimize the unusual 'feel' they will smooth the transition.

But I will fight strongly against anyone who believes that there is any loss of braking ( lengthening of the braking distance ) or loss of control of the vehicle. That is simply wrong. But there are lot of vultures and money-grubbing scum in both the US and Canada who are looking to make money on the hysteria. I read of 4 more instances yesterday. This IMO is evil and needs to be stomped out and destroyed at every opportunity.

No, It is not agreed. There might be a loss of 'feel' but not of the effectiveness. If anything is might be disconcerting to certain drivers which might cause them to react badly until the feeling is understood. In every test done by every car mag or testing agency the Prius stops as well or better than every other car in its class.

Sources and references or it never happened. Wait, somebody else said the same thing.

 

With all the Toyota Fear BS now in the news, can I assume that all is back to "Normal" in Haiti....

Just like the day after 9/11, Chandra Levy Who??????

 

HAH!! You think EXACTLY like me.

 

The Sky is FALLING,
The Sky is FALLING,

 

while i find these controversies amusing to read, i do believe that most of the problems that have led to all the recalls are because so many people jumped on toyota products in the cash for clunkers bill.
whereas, previously, we hybrid users were ready willing and able to try out all these new technologies and were actually excited by the new feel of engines turning on and off by themselves and brakes reacting differently because of regeneration. and, although we were not happy with everything, we discussed it and debated the merits and alternatives. i think over time, people will become more accepting of new driving styles and a few will go back to old technologies.

 

Makes it sound all the more like BS to me...