The Chevy Volt - Addressing Your Concerns

The recent news about Volt stirred feelings on the big GM forum. This particular comment there about what the success of Volt could mean compelled me to respond... "Toyota would, for the first time in a long time, be playing catch up to GM if they'd just figure out how to get the Volt on the road." ...so I did, with this:


Really?

I always thought the point was to deliver a design that could support the automaker's financial well being.

Isn't that what the hopes are for Two-Mode?

A "series" hybrid competing against a Plug-In Two-Mode is an interesting dilemma. Whether or not another automaker comes into that equation is missing the point. The actual underlying issue is the type of hybrid. That's competition from within.

Volt would be remain a specialty vehicle, much like a sports car. Spreading the technology to vehicles that just began offering Two-Mode (plug optional) wouldn't make any sense. In other words, what are GM's true plans for the use of a "series" hybrid?

 

John: I think the Chevy Volt is a very good concept: Plug-in for 40 miles, gasoline beyond 40. Most people could drive it as an EV most of the time and still be able to take extended road trips. An obvious and logical option would be more batteries for extended EV range.

Toyota would then have a competitive incentive to introduce a plug-in Prius with full performance in EV for 30 or 40 miles before reverting to HSD operation. HSD is superior for hybrid operation, but if the Volt were produced before a plug-in Prius, GM would have first crack at the PHEV market.

The problem is that I don't believe GM has any intention of producing the Volt, whereas we're all crossing our fingers for a plug-in Prius.

(Speaking for myself, however, I'd much rather have a freeway-capable 100-mile pure EV, and keep my Prius as a second car for road trips.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 24 2007, 10:58 AM) [snapback]411514[/snapback]</div>

Now, we are almost certain a PHEV Prius will not happen. Think GM EV1 part Deux a la Toyota.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dipper @ Mar 24 2007, 10:11 PM) [snapback]411757[/snapback]</div>

I guess we have different ideas of "we."

Who is "almost certain" a PHEV Prius will not happen? Whether or not the 2009 Prius is PHEV (and I don't have much hope for that one) I think the future is PHEV. Maybe the next major model revision after the 2009.

Toyota is so heavily committed to HSD that I don't believe they'll return to pure EV any time soon. While an EV is what I want, the fact is that most Americans want a car that can go on road trips, and unless a battery pack capable of being charged in 10 or 15 minutes can be developed, that means most cars will be burning gas, and pure EVs are a niche market. PHEV is the obvious solution: EV for neighborhood chores, hybrid for road trips. And Toyota is perfectly situated for that, with the best hybrid system on the road today.

If any big company is going to produce a pure EV, I look to Honda. Honda is innovative and foreward-looking, and its IMA hybrid has clearly lost the hybrid race to Toyota.

But I think it more likely that the big companies will shun the niche market of EV, and that small start-up companies like Tesla or ZapCars will be the ones that finally bring EVs to market, possibly becoming very big companies as people finally wake up to the inevitable end of oil. (Not the absolute end of all oil, but the end of oil as a cheap and abundant energy source for the wasting.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 25 2007, 06:25 AM) [snapback]411858[/snapback]</div>

I agree with what you say here, Daniel (except for this little quote) - and have to point out that we already have batteries that can be fast charged. And we have fast chargers. We have ways of getting the high voltage that's needed. We have EVERYTHING available for fast-charge EVs - nothing needs to be invented - just implemented. But of course long range and quick refill is not what EVs do best. What they do best is what 95% of Americans use their cars for. Driving well under 100 miles/day. For that task, nothing has proven better in any metric than a BEV. For the times when people need to travel further, more expensive options can be added to allow for it.

But make no mistake - if we wanted BEVs to replace gasoline miles, we could have done it years ago. Compared to the big promise of FCVs, BEVs actually CAN be quick to filled, and provide long range for a fraction of the cost, and a fraction of the energy.

Technology is not what is holding back adoption of BEVs.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Mar 25 2007, 09:20 AM) [snapback]411874[/snapback]</div>

I didn't know this. Tell me more, please. I presume one needs very high current, and a way to keep the battery cool during charging, and battery chemistry capable of changing state rapidly.

We know that the Prius can accept and provide charge at a limited rate (something a little over 100 amps, I think).

Of course, capacitors can accept and provide current extremely fast (dangerously so) but I gather their energy density is too low at present to substitute for batteries just yet.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 25 2007, 08:41 AM) [snapback]411884[/snapback]</div>

Ah, damn. I was going to quickly point you to my site... and I see the link is broken. Aerovironment was the pioneer in this "fast charge" area - and developed fast charging right along with the production EVs 15 years ago. And they are still in business providing fast-charging to some huge airport ground support fleets. It is much cheaper/easier to fast charge one back than the old way of buying two packs and swapping one in while the other charged.

Today we have new battery chemistries that will allow insanely high charge rates. When the pack is built with active liquid cooling, you can safely keep temps in check. The folks behind the Phoenix truck are a bit TOO optimistic about their fast charge capability, but at least that'll give you some idea. I'd give you lots of pointers, but a beautiful day and a fast bicycle are beckoning!

 

OK... so slightly more to the point, and possibly a more logical response here...

We've had batteries for MANY years that can accept very rapid charges. The batteries in my Rav can be charged at 50A (and is actually designed to be charged this fast!) yet the charger that eventually came with the car is only capable of about 5-6A. Nothing new needs to be invented for the batteries to accept a fast charge. The only hurdle here is supplying enough current. There's no magic - the faster you want to transfer a given chunk of energy, the harder you have to push it. And while super high voltage/current power sources are not in every home, they are also not difficult to create, in the grand scheme of things. Again - nothing new needs to be invented.

And quick charging simply is not needed at home, or for most people's normal driving. Having some quick chargers on the highway would allow long-distance travel, however. And one EV friend calculated that we could put one 15 minute fast-charger on every 20 miles of CA highway for the cost of a single self-contained H2 fueling station. But where does our money go? To the mysterious "Hydrogen Highway" of course!

If we had the cars, I can see all kinds of businesses wanting to install fast chargers along the highway (or gosh, we could have the governement fund them with all that H2 cash they seem to have sitting around). They'd have a card swipe for self service, and while you wait for your car to charge... you can buy a bagel. Or Coffee. Or get take-out lunch.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Mar 25 2007, 09:55 PM) [snapback]412153[/snapback]</div>

I agree that fast charging is not needed in homes. And I don't see the government installing them on the highways. The logical thing would be for gas stations to install fast chargers.

Interesting, though, that the anti-EV folks have been able to put out that charging takes hours, without anyone saying otherwise.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 25 2007, 09:58 PM) [snapback]412165[/snapback]</div>

Phoenix Motors has been saying that their truck can be charged in 10 minutes (I just checked - it is in their FAQ). The Tesla is capable of fast charging as well (can't recall max current off the top of my head, and I'm too tired to search). Same with everything that uses the ACP running gear.

The reason nobody can really say otherwise, is because the cars we have - coupled with the chargers they gave us - DO take hours to charge. That's a fact that isn't in dispute. But that doesn't mean the batteries are not capable of being charged 10, 15, 20x faster than we're charging them.

Rode 42 miles today. One solid hour was at 22mph+. New record for me. But now I can barely walk, of course. Going to bed!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 25 2007, 07:25 AM) [snapback]411858[/snapback]</div>

I was referring to "we" as consumers.
And
"almost certain" as PHEV will not happen unless other manufacturers are going to provide it. If the Volt did come out, we would have guess that the Prius will be forced to come out. The only reason we have hybrids from Honda and Toyota was because of the US government giving money away to make 70mpg hybrids (we know that never happened now)... but Honda/Toyota did not know that... until now.

And like GM killing the EV1, Toyota killed the Rav4EV as well. Have GM not killed the EV1, the Rav4EV would still be sold. Same can be said about the PHEV Prius. If no other large auto company is forcing Toyota's hand, we might not see it anytime soon either.

I hope Tesla, Phoenix motors and others prove the big boys wrong. Tesla is too expensive for me with the roadster, but hope Phoenix Motors will sell to consumers. I am willing to support them. I am interested with VentureOne as well... the only reason I have some faith in them because they have very good partners that had delievered before. Furthermore, since it is registered as a motor bike, VentureOne do not need to do crash testing, allowing them to come to market faster.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 24 2007, 01:58 PM) [snapback]411514[/snapback]</div>

EXACTLY! What we need right now is a great big fight between the manufacturers to win the PHEV sales battle over our pounds and dollars. As soon as they realise that whoever has the best PHEV gets the biggest share of the profits, we are the ultimate winners on that one regardless of which company "wins".

PS Phoenix are claiming the 10 minute recharge for a specific reason - the California clean air tax credit system has a clause giving very high paybacks for vehicles that can be charged in 10 minutes or under (this clause was put in by the nuclear and gas lobby, who are desperate to promote hydrogen refueling in any way they can). I think you get about 4x the credit of a >10 minute charging EV. This tax credit (worth tens of thousands of dollars) is one of the main selling points of the Phoenix trucks.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Mar 25 2007, 11:04 PM) [snapback]412166[/snapback]</div>

The Tesla can go from depleted to full (or 92%, which is the recommended level for battery life) in 3.5 hours using the supplied home charging station. IIRC that's 70 amps. Obviously, that's a long ways from the 15 minutes I'd consider ideal for road trips. But if you are right, that's a function of the charger, not the batteries. It does use active liquid cooling, powered by the car's air conditioner. I wonder if ten-minute charging would require a more powerful refrigeration system.

In any case, the Tesla Roadster would not be great for road trips, due to its minimal trunk space. But the Prius body with an all-EV drivetrain would be another matter.

When I was riding my mountain bike, an hour at 12 mph left my legs all rubbery. When I switched to my lightweight (but not high-tech or carbon-fiber) road bike, 30 miles at 15 mph was a walk in the park. 20 mph was a real workout, however. And my long rides (60 to 100 miles) I cruised along at 15 mph with a rest/food stop every 20 miles.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 26 2007, 07:11 AM) [snapback]412271[/snapback]</div>

Correct. I'm speaking of the capability of the battery system, not of the charge rate with the supplied charger. The homeowner doesn't need the fast charger. The idea is that Tesla would develop infrastructure that can fast-charge. And of course "fast charge" can mean different things to different people. For some it is 10 minutes or bust. For others, a full 250-300 mile addition in one hour would be plenty fast enough.

The bottom line here is that if we WANTED to do these, we quite easily and cheaply (as compared to the other options) COULD do it. But why bother? We've got gasoline - the ultimate cheap, fast-fuel.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ Mar 26 2007, 04:45 AM) [snapback]412231[/snapback]</div>

As usual, you nailed it Clett.

 

With a 250-mile range, a one-hour charge is no better for me than an 8-hour overnight charge, because an hour is too long a stop in a long road trip, and a long road trip is the only time I'd need more than 250 miles in a day. How many people are likely to need to drive more than 250 miles in a day, and still have an hour to spare for charging?

With a 15-minute charge time I could drive to Seattle for the alternative fuel fair in Lacey. For that matter, with a 200-mile range and a 15-minute charge time, I could take any road trip I'd take in my gas car, because after 3 hours of driving I'm ready for a 15-minute break to go to the bathroom and drink some juice. And I really hate the smell of gas. It would be wonderful to have a clean electrical plug instead of a gas nozzle.

However, with a 100-mile range and freeway capability I'd be willing to make an EV my daily-drive car and keep the gas car for road trips and hauling. I'll repeat that I'd buy a Tesla today if it was on the lot and ready to drive away.

 

I'll start off by saying what I've said before:

long distance is not what a BEV does best. BEVs CAN be made into a long-distance cars, but that isn't where our efforts should be aimed, IMO.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 26 2007, 11:05 AM) [snapback]412444[/snapback]</div>

In my mind... just about everybody. Let's say it takes four hours to drive 250 miles. In those four hours, you stop twice for 30 minutes to eat, pee and stretch. You don't need to go to empty before you recharge. I won't pretend that I'm any kind of normal driver, but I have a hell of a time sitting in a car for four hours straight. Super fast charging is possible - but is it worth a ton of extra monty? If you're going to be driving 800 miles, don't take an EV. If I owned a motorcycle still, I wouldn't choose to take it either!

For the short term, there's your best bet. Before we bought the Prius, I used to say that we had two hybrids - just divided between two cars. We had the EV that was driven every day. And the gas Civic for the long trips. We used the proper car for the task at hand, and it worked really well. Now the joke isn't as good because we have a real EV and a hybrid now.... but we still use them the same way. They compliment each other perfectly.

 

I think there is a reason Darell own a prius as his gas gussler.... Long range isn't what the BEVs do best. I do agree with Darrell though that I would be willing to take 30 minutes coffee brakes every 2-3 hours and plug the car in during that time. Heck It would probably make me a safer driver.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Mar 26 2007, 01:14 PM) [snapback]412495[/snapback]</div>

I agree. And that's why I'd be delighted with a 100-mile EV that recharges in 8 hours. The Prius would be for longer trips, and for hauling if the EV were a Tesla.

But I find that when I do take long road trips, I don't want to stop for more then ten minutes. Half an hour every three is too long. I take a leak, gas up, maybe drink a fruit juice, and I'm ready to go again. Fifteen minutes, to be EV, I would not complain. 20 minutes is stretching it.

Of course, right now, this is all academic, because those fast chargers are not in place. But there's no excuse for every big auto maker not to have a 150-mile freeway-capable EV on the lots, yesterday, ready to drive away.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Mar 26 2007, 08:46 AM) [snapback]412342[/snapback]</div>

It sorta reminds me of a mystery book I finished called Sour Puss, which is part of the Mrs. Murphy series. There's always references to trucks (this takes place in the townof Crozet, VA), sports cars, SUVs and the like.

Fair Haristeen (the vet) first comments that he read an article in either the Wall Street Journal or the London Financial Times that the emissions of a hybrid is as hot as gasoline. He did conclude that it would be better to get rid of the internal combustion engine, but then said, "I expect some technology will replace the internal combustion engine, but I can't imagine what or if it will happen in my time."

Makes you want to scream, "THE TECHNOLOGY EXISTS NOW!"